Gay Camps and Passing

Well I don't think he's that smart either.

But this isn't about Dawkins, so lets not get off-topic.

Yes. Anyways, everyone knows it's Mrs. Garrisson's faut that he turned out that way. He used to be sweet. I'm more of a Feynman and Sagan fan myself.

Back on topic, my prediction is that camps that are about teaching gay kids to be happy in whatever way they choose, including giving them the proper training and understanding to "pass" comfortably, may not capture a sizeable portion of the public that sends their kids to straightening camps, but, given that their goal is intrinsically virtuous in the first place, might be worth trying out anyway. The problem is the implementation; while I'm certain there's plenty of perfectly qualified and willing psychologists, sociologists, gender-studies specialists, and so on that would be interested in developing the methods and manuals needed, and plenty of pedagogues who would be thrilled to try them out, the way the idea is pitched and implemented will have a dramatic effect on the quality of the final product, and, most importantly, on the resulting impact on the happiness of the students.

There's also the problem of reassuring the parents, on solid grounds, that their kids won't be having random encounter sex during their sojourn, without coming off as sex-negative and repressive to the kids, since, on one hand, it would go against the "be okay with yourselves" message, and, on the other, it would be counterproductive in terms of expected resulting behavior

edited 3rd Nov '12 7:43:26 AM by TheHandle

No, it's the tyranny of the majority in action. It's democracy in the same way that a lynch mob is a jury of ones peers. Democracy is built upon the rule of law, and the rule of law exists to protect those without power (in this case, homosexuals) from the abuses of those with power (in this case, bigots). Just because the people around you think that it's okay to send your kids away to abuse the gay devil out of them doesn't mean you have the right too.

Now, I don't really get what these camps are supposed to even be for. This:

Just carries a whole host of Unfortunate Implications. Kids - of all sexualities - should be taught that "being gay is okay" because getting that into people's heads is the only way to tackle homophobia. Being gay doesn't entail anything, shouldn't entail anything and would never entail anything if people learn that gay people are just... people, no different than any other people.

This creepy reeducation camp culture will never achieve that.

I couldn't disagree more strongly on either account.

• Democracy is the rule of the majority. Whether it's a tyranny or a benevolent dictatorship depends entirely on the nature of said majority. Specifically, the rules it will allow itself to be beholden to.
• "Being gay is okay" is a value judgment every single individual must do based on their learned values, their natural disposition, and the empirical evidence available to them. It is ethical to present the kids with a selection of evidence (and, by the way, try one's best to avoid Selection Bias and Spotlight Bias in doing so), and to allow them to make their own conclusions and find their own answers. It is not ethical to force feed one's own values onto them. This not only applies to education, but to any form of communication, including narration. See Show, Don't Tell and Anvilicious. You just don't dump your value judgements on people; you show them what's there, and you let them come to their own conclusions. Otherwise it's just propaganda, no matter how righteous you think it is.

No, it isn't. Being gay doesn't reflect anything other than your sexual orientation and teaching kids that "Most homosexuals are pedophile druggies" is wrong and has been proven wrong many times over is not propaganda. Is propaganda, but backed up with you, know scientific evidence and that good stuff.

edited 3rd Nov '12 10:11:19 AM by majoraoftime

Depends on which definition of 'propaganda' your going by.

The way I learned it Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward or against some cause, position, or view

edited 3rd Nov '12 10:33:48 AM by DeviantBraeburn

"Homosexuals are paedophile druggies" is exactly the kind of empiric statement that can be disproven by impartial, incontrovertible, hard evidence, and which this camp can easily debunk. "Homosexuality is not right and proper", "Homosexuality is disgusting/wierd", etc., however, are value judgements that are utterly pointless to argue about, because they're based on subjective, visceral reactions to the pool of evidence the individual has accumulated up until that point, including other people's subjective, visceral reactions. The best you can hope for is that they acknowledge the impartial evidence you present them as such, incorporate it into their priors, and, having done so, that they come up with a different value judgment. The first part is not guaranteed, and neither is the second.

That's why I'd prefer to avoid doing that. The point is not to "further the acceptance of gays", the point is to "show the children that happiness is possible, and to show them different ways to achieve it a fashion that satisfies their values, including changing said values". If the former is a by-product of the latter, so be it, but it's not an end-goal in itself.

And, decent relationship counselling and/or teaching in schools for all orientations isn't enough? Why do the whole stupid camp thing?

Heck: the basics to happy, healthy relationships are the same across the board, regardless of sexual preference.

Ahem. *cough*. Sorry. What I meant to say is, counsellors are a random, unreliable bunch, and while some of them may be good at their job, most of them are terrible, and it figures, because they aren't paid nearly enough for the complexity of the task they're asked to undertake.

I won't laugh this time, because it would be redundant, but I'll say this instead; this is flat-out wrong. There is a number of skills that do work for all kinds of relationships, but the hand you're dealt by circumstances can radically change the effect and relative utility of those skills. If said circumstance is that you are gay, it makes it all the more complicated. The other folks don't have to deal with more than ninety percent of the people they'd be attracted to not having a cold day in hell of a chance of reciprocating. The other folks don't have to bother with legislative and institutional discrimination. The other folk don't have to battle Internalized Categorisms that want to stick them in seedy clubs getting drugged, or wearing ridiculous drag, or developing parody-of-the-opposite-sex mannerisms and fashion choices.

The kids are looking for role models and ideas. If they're gay, they parents aren't going to give them that. If they aren't given specific information, they might take their models from the media. Bury Your Gays? Depraved Homosexual? Camp Gay? Macho Camp? Get Back in the Closet? What sort of inane, self-destructive behaviours are they going to imitate just because they think that's the way a gay person is "supposed" to behave?

Also, why "stupid" camps? A well-done camp is an awesome, life-changing experience of goodness and friendship, regardless of what the camp's about. A camp such as this would be an opportunity to meet other gay folks from all over the place, and gain a first-hand experience in how different everyone is from everyone, and how stereotypes don't hold.

edited 3rd Nov '12 5:24:51 PM by TheHandle

Why do you believe that a camp would be able to do any better?

Councilors are a cowardly and superstitious lot.

Jeez, you'd think I hadn't put the "decent" in there with malice aforethought, or something.

Which is more humane? Gathering up a sub-group of people, boating them off to be pummelled into being good little citizens, able to conform to the majority, told to suck up their differences an told that they will never be equal and that's just the way it is and that their problems are special as they are lesser beings and always will be (which is what you are coming across as meaning, Handle)... Or, trying to teach everybody together into understanding everybody to some degree?

Granted, this means improving the denigrated counsellor service, but if Holland and most of the Scandinavian countries can do it, anybody can. If they focus on it, that is.

Quit being parochial in your thought patterns and think about what I might have been getting at, pray, do, why don't you.

edited 4th Nov '12 7:46:59 AM by Euodiachloris

About the second point, it's not about hammering people into mold, it's about teaching them how to fit if and when they want to or need to. That's a basic social skill that any minorities should learn; it's on the same level as speaking a language. If being forced into it worries you so much, the material could be split in modules, where every student chooses to join the modules they want to and abstain from those they don't. At the end of each module, they'd get a test and a badge, Junior Woodchucks style. Allow me to get cheesy and toss some ideas around

• DECISIVE PASS: "Can pass as straight in hostile environment".
• CLEAN BILL "Knows about the places to get tested for STDS for free and how to find them".
• FREE TIME: "Knows how to find safe environments to meet and socialize with other gay people, and how to discriminate between them in terms of taste and subculture". *CHEMICAL ROMANCE: "Knows about drug usage, the advantages and dangers thereof, and the precautions that need to be taken against overdose... and against getting drugged by third parties."
• BABIES NEVER AFTER: ... Well, that's not really a concern for most gay people, but I like the name.
• PARENT HOOD (instead of a badge, you get a hoodie): Knows about the different processes by which they can have children. Adoption, surrogate mothers, sperm donation... Including a large number of statistics and testimonies about how the experience has turned out for predecessor couples. What are the challenges of raising a child? How does having two parents of the same sex affect a child's upbringing? Will there be bullying, and how to deal with it?
• WHAT BWINGS US TOGETHEW: Knows about the different kinds of government-acknowledged unions that gay couples can get in their regions of interest, costs, procedures, advantages and disadvantages... Knows also about the challenges of living together as a couple, from statistics about their durability to testimonies about their style.
• NO BULL: Bullying and tactics on how to deal with it. Deterrence: from administrative sanctions and appeal to authority all the way down to vicious physical violence. Endurance: how to keep a steady head in the face of negative reinforcement.
• NERVES OF STEEL: How to deal with propaganda, manipulation, terror, and all the many forms of psychological attack.
• IRONING VELVET: Having effeminate mannerisms doesn't mean one has to be weak-willed, projecting a gruff exterior doesn't mean one has to be an insensitive oaf. How to balance form and intent in order to best achieve one's goals, win friends and influence people.
• UNREQUITED: There's an annoyingly big chance that the person you grow a crush on doesn't feel the same way, and you know how to deal with that.
• CAN'T BUY¨ME LOVE: Prostitution; the good, the bad, and the ugly. After this course, you'll be able to make an informed decision on whether you ever want to go anywhere near that trade, either as a consumer or as a distributor. This includes euphemistic variations such as Sex for Services, Sugar Daddy, and so on.
• FABULOUS: Gay fashion and how its codes distinct from mainstream fashion. A course in good taste and fun tastelessness.
• CROSS-PLAY: The best corssdressing advice for flawless passing. It won't matter if they know your birth sex, they'll still find themselves enchanted!
• STUPID-SEXY: How to achieve the same result without even feigning being the opposite sex. Manliness to woo males, feminity to make girls blush!
• And I'll stop here because I'm having way too much fun.

As for your other point, I'd agree when it comes to Europe (though it's amusing how reticent some states are to imitate their betters), but the USA is notorious for its schools not copying what works best from each other. You can have an awesomely-functioning school on a shoestring budget, and the overpriced horrorhouse next door won't even bother trying to learn what you're doing right.