Needs Help: Competitive Balance

... "The character archetypes are based off of the triangle.., that automatically means that Competitive Balance is about the triangle" "If the character archetypes are both based off the triangle and are in Competitive Balance, then Competitive Balance is still about the triangle..." "Maybe you like repeating yourself, but I don't."

What I want to do is make a supertrope for those tropes that does have the triangle in the description.

Why? The whole problem starting this discussion was not the page of Competitive Balance. This discussion was started because by people were confused that some tropes refer to two and others to three stats of the triangle. One of possible reasons for this confusion was that the page image of these tropes use a triangle, even if the trope only uses two stats.

The only currently existing tropes which would fit under the triangle supertrope are Lightning Bruiser and Mighty Glacier. That is not enough.

Putting Glass Cannon under the A/D/S triangle would be wrong, because this trope says nothing about speed. A Glass Cannon can even exist in a work which doesn't use the speed stat at all. The same goes for all the other two stat defined tropes, they simply do not belong to this triangle.

edited 1st Oct '12 5:02:29 PM by Osmium

How the heck do you figure? There are clearly three stats being referenced in that pic, even if only one outright uses Speed as a variable (Fragile Speedster). Just because Glass Cannon doesn't use the triangle doesn't mean it's exempt from the triangle. In fact, one problem I even stated was that we need a trope for a fast Glass Cannon and a slow Glass Cannon. Because they exist.

The entire POINT to what shiro and I are trying to do is to demonstrate other ways that speed is a factor, as well as other potential stats like resource-gathering, reflexes, accuracy, etc.

edited 1st Oct '12 5:11:33 PM by KingZeal

There are clearly three stats being referenced in that pic

A trope is not defined by its page image!

Just because Glass Cannon doesn't use the triangle doesn't mean it's exempt from the triangle

Yes Glass Cannon can be the result if a work uses the A/D/S-triangle, but Glass Cannon can also be the result in a work using an Attack/Defense/Cost triangle, or an Attack/Defense/Range triangle or any other combinations of stats including attack and defense. Therefore it belongs on a page which is about Competitive Balance in general and not about the A/D/S triangle specific.

In fact, one problem I even stated was that we need a trope for a fast Glass Cannon and a slow Glass Cannon. Because they exist.

Then make a TRS-thread about this trope. If you want to make that big changes on a page it is only fair to give people who are interested in this trope a warning by adding the TRS - tag to the page.

The entire POINT to what shiro and I are trying to do is to demonstrate other ways that speed is a factor, as well as other potential stats like resource-gathering, reflexes, accuracy, etc.

Moving tropes, which rightfully have their place on the Competitive Balance page away will not make the page more varied it will make it more restricted. If you want to make the page more varied add tropes. Search for tropes which do not use the A/D/S -stats, to demonstrate other weakness/advantages can be used. E.g. Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors and Tactical Rock–Paper–Scissors can be added, to demonstrate that the balance is not necessary about stats.

Yes, but King Zeal wants to integrate the different aspects of speed into offense and defense in the process of creating a new system to categorize ALL of the subtropes. He can't do that if the Fragile Speedster, Mighty Glacier, and Lightning Bruiser remain as part of Competitive Balance. If King Zeal implements his new system, those three tropes suddenly no longer belong in Competitive Balance, and become homeless, if not outright defunct. Creating a new supertrope would solve that.

So what do you want to do? Do you oppose the idea of categorizing all the subtropes? Do you think it doesn't matter if those three tropes are homeless or get deleted? If not any of that, then I don't see the point of your argument.

edited 1st Oct '12 5:54:36 PM by shiro_okami

You were the one who criticized the image, not me. I was pointing out the flaw in your critique.

Really? NO SHIT?!! That's only what we've been saying this whole damn time!! What are you arguing against?!!

I repeat: No shit?!

THAT IS NOT WHAT WE SAID!!!

I made a whole damn list of them on several pages. Where have you been?

edited 1st Oct '12 6:00:21 PM by KingZeal

Do you oppose the idea of categorizing all the subtropes?

If a new sorting system removes roughly 40 % of valid subtropes from a supertrope, than it doesn't help catergorizing all subtropes. As the page is written now the presence of the subtropes does not prevent the addition of new tropes, thus the current sorting system is superior.

Yes, they are getting removed, but if they're getting put under a new supertrope, what does it matter? What makes the current sorting system superior then?

edited 1st Oct '12 6:20:09 PM by shiro_okami

Not only that, but tropes like Mighty Glacier and Fragile Speedster probably wouldn't be omitted at all. They DO qualify for both Competitive Balance AND the new theoretical super trope after all.

Wait a minute. If you're going to remove speed from the triangle and sort its different aspects under offense and defense, then how do Fragile Speedster and Mighty Glacier still fit under Competitive Balance if there's no distinction between speed and defense? Now I'm confused.

, Do you, or do you not talk about removing tropes from the page? Going in a all bold capslock mode to tell me that you are not talking about moving tropes and the suddenly talk about moving tropes is not really consistent.

edited 1st Oct '12 6:30:40 PM by Osmium

Well, Mighty Glacier is obvious: a strong, defense character exists in character balance. That's kind of a staple.

But Speedsters depend on what type of speedster. You have high offense, high defense, support, resourceful, etc. "Speed" would have to be broken up into subtypes like Evasion, Movement, Control, Cost, Initiative, etc.

But it's still part of how the game is balanced. Thus, still Competitive Balance.

In other words, you want to redefine/reword the tropes to fit the new system instead of keeping them as is. Is that it? In that case, a new supertrope would be unnecessary.

Not that it could have prevented this whole argument, but I would have preferred that you mentioned that sooner. If you did, I must have missed it.

edited 1st Oct '12 7:10:12 PM by shiro_okami

Yes, in a nutshell.

And the old Offense/Defense/Support triad would be split into a narrative trope. Because that's its main purpose. To let you know who The Big Guy is and who the moe resourceful but weaker guy is. The problem we're having is that people see this SO MUCH in narrative that they try to pigeonhole it into games that it doesn't fit.

edited 1st Oct '12 7:12:39 PM by KingZeal

But you are still making Competitive Balance mostly video-game oriented, right? Is it going to be exclusively video game examples, or primarily video game examples with other media examples too?

EDIT: Oh, okay.

edited 1st Oct '12 7:14:12 PM by shiro_okami

There is an awful lot of italicizes, bolded and exclamation points going on here. I think we need to cut back and figure out what the point of this thread is. The original intent is that some tropes like Lightning Bruiser need work and that it needed to start from the top with Competitive Balance, which (while it is not saying the triangle IS the trope) is otherwise sort of vague on what components are involved.

Zeal put up a great list on terms and definitions the trope should be about, while it should not try to claim those six tropes as being the foundational support of CB (they are just one example of how it is used). The examples are largely okay, although any non-game media examples should still be focused on why, for example, each Super Mode has it's advantages and disadvantages. It isn't just that an action movie has characters that fit in different combat tropes.

Not really. Fictional confrontations aren't really about "balance". A Super Mode may or may not have a drawback, but that's arbitrary. There do exist a Shonen Upgrade or two that completely outclasses the Super Mode before it. For example, Super Saiyan made Kaioken pretty much redundant with the exception of one non-canon instance.

In fiction, speed = skill/strength = toughness dynamic is used as a characterization mechanic. You know Thor is good because he's basically a brute who uses willpower and brawn to win while his brother Loki schemes and uses underhanded tactics. On the other hand, Jackie Chan has had many fights where he had to fight a stronger, slower, dumber opponent while using his wits and sharply-honed skills to win. The goal wasn't to make the characters "balanced"; it was to make a Foil for the character you were rooting for that makes a particular attribute (honor, willpower, skill, bravery, resourcefulness) shine.

edited 2nd Oct '12 5:05:50 AM by KingZeal

An example from A Song Of Ice And Fire.

We have a fight between a heavy armored knight, who is famous for his strength and a lightly armored fighter using tricks. The reader knows at this point, that the advantages and disadvantages of each fighting style balance each other out and that the outcome of the fight is open, because in previous similar situations it was shown that both fighting styles can win.

In this case the balance is important, because this is the tool the author uses to create tension.

Yeah, that isn't an example, because it's author contrivance.

For example, Wolverine and The Hulk are often said to be equal rivals. Wolverine is faster and far more skilled, but the Hulk is much, MUCH stronger. Comics have posited that the two basically break even.

That doesn't mean that it's "competitive balance" though. It's STILL a foil versus another foil. That is not the same as hard numerical balance in real warfare, competition or gameplay.

edited 2nd Oct '12 6:56:55 AM by KingZeal

I'm talking that theoretically a character has three different Super Modes to choose from, each with varying specialties as an explanation why they don't just use the most powerful one every time. And that is not including games/sports in fiction like the armor packs for the Liger Zero in Zoids.

I agree it's not about arbitrary shield vs sword analogies.

edited 2nd Oct '12 10:16:56 AM by KJMackley

You're talking about Multiform Balance.

*bump*

I think I know how to integrate the character tropes into the new Competitive Balance. It has already been established that the attack/defense/speed triangle is flawed because speed can be considered another part of defense. Earlier, I tried to reword the triangle, but I think that was a mistake. I think we need a square instead, defined by offensive strength*

edited 13th Oct '12 9:51:05 AM by shiro_okami

In that case, what say you about Mighty Glacier and Fragile Speedster?

They would still fit. This would allow us to keep those tropes, and would instead create more tropes instead of getting rid of existing ones.

I don't think force/mass/acceleration is a good fit here. Game logic/physics is not dependent upon real world logic/physics.

Other than that, I'm kind of neutral about the idea, and in particular find "acceleration" and "strength" to be bad wording.