Needs Help: Western Animation.Toon Makers Sailor Moon

Because we don't just make pages for really long "What Could Have Been" entries?

It's a little confusing, but the interview that revealed the pilot's existence did have Rocky Solotoff call it a "presentation piece". Then he mentioned the music video was actually part of the pilot.

Well, I don't think the discussion is going to go anywhere. Should we vote on it? Keep, move (where?), cut?

I'd vote "Keep as is", "Move to Manga/Sailor Moon", or "Cut".

"Keep but remove speculative tropes" should also be an option.

So we're going to have a trope page with an intro longer than the actual tropes?

Actually, for funsies, I looked up this "show" on Wikimoon. Instead of finding a page for an actual show, I found a Toon Makers Music Video page. The entire page is five sentences long.

That's right, the TV Tropes page is more detailed and encyclopedic on this than an actual wiki dedicated to the franchise. Oh, and they described it as a "footage reel" in the intro instead of a show.

If it has at least three tropes, it's not a stub. I honestly don't see what the fuss is about.

I agree with Rebochan that this should be cut (or rather reduced to a note on the regular Sailor Moon work page), but I would also be on board with just cutting the speculative tropes.

The article is named for the footage, but they describe it as a pilot episode.

"The footage showed a music video that had clips taken from a pilot episode of an American live-action/animation show derived from Sailor Moon"

Fair enough, but the footage real is all that exists and the pilot has never been seen. We can try to extrapolate certain things from the music video, but we're still just guessing at anything that isn't really obvious. Like, we can see that Space Sailing took place, but the TV tropes page actually tries to explain how it was integrated into the plot when we don't have any information on the plot whatsoever.

This is all that needs to be said about this show:

• What Could Have Been: In the mid-90s, Renaissance Atlantic commissioned Toon Makers to produce a pitch for a live-action/animated mash-up, which would have featured completely new footage. All that's ever been seen of it is a two-minute music video that showed the cast was replaced with a Five-Token Band which Race Lifted the all-Asian cast of hte original into an ethnically diverse American cast and one of the girls now used a wheelchair. The girls apparently used a Toon Transformation to switch from live-action to their superpowered forms, and all of the action footage was done in traditional 2D westernized animation. They also apparently took "Sailor Moon" literally, as the Sailor Soldiers were depicted flying through space on wind-surfing Sail Boards. An Animefringe interview from 2001 with Rocky Solotoff shed some light on the production and revealed a concept pilot had even been shot, but the show never came to be as Toei passed on the pilot due to cost and simply commissioned Di C Entertainment to produce a traditional dub of the anime instead. A number of fans nicknamed this "Saban Moon" due to its similarities to productions by Saban Entertainment at the time, but Saban actually had nothing to do with this one.

edited 12th Sep '12 2:03:35 PM by Rebochan

Even if you deleted all the examples that aren't quite up-to-snuff, we'd still have at least 3 completely verifiable examples with plenty of detail. '80s Hair, Five-Token Band, Race Lift, and Toon Transformation, for instance.

Yes, we could throw those tropes into Sailor Moon, but it just wouldn't look as nice or be as readable, so I don't see a point to it.

edit: ^thanks for proving my point about it not being as readable

edited 12th Sep '12 2:11:35 PM by abk0100

80s hair isn't valid because it's not an 80s show. And I just wrote an entry that makes more sense for discussing a show that doesn't exist than making an entire trope page for a show that doesn't exist (which also invites other people to keep adding speculative tropes).

Now you're getting really pedantic. 80s hair didn't stop existing in December of 1989.

The footage would have been shot in the early-to-mid-90s, I think we're allowed to say that a trope meant to describe hair from a different decade isn't going to apply outside of a period piece. The entry itself even admits it's not '80s Hair, and then compares it's hair and fashion sense to Blossom, a show that ran in and reflected fashion trends of the early to mid 90s.

This one is stretching it anyway, because their hair isn't showing any typical 80s trends at all - it's not unnaturally large, unusually colored, or overly styled or teased.

And yet we still have more than three tropes that are verifiably in the work.

Merchandise-Driven, Tertiary Sexual Characteristics, Five-Token Band, Toon Transformation, Transformation Sequence, Race Lift, and Space Sailing. Plus possibly others.

Plus Old Shame and What Could Have Been as trivia.

EDIT: This is neither here nor there, but I think we need a '90s Hair trope.

edited 13th Sep '12 7:59:41 AM by ccoa

We're going in circles, so please take this finely crafted crowner.

Merchandise-Driven is not proven - the source said they were asked to include them, and that it may have been intended to sell toys, but he didn't know that either.

But I guess now even shows that don't exist get trope pages based on the crowner right now. Also, the speculative tropes are just going to keep popping up if the page isn't locked.

edited 13th Sep '12 2:30:05 PM by Rebochan

Okay, where is this "if it has at least three tropes, it's a work" standard coming from? I can't find it anywhere on this site. I could, right now, come up with at least three tropes for a piece of concept art and grant it a work page.

Work Pages Are A Free Launch and How To Create A Works Page? I'm sure I remember reading it as that.

That's only covering stubs. That shouldn't make a work a work though. I mean, I could, right now, go start the Wonder Woman (2011) series page since the bootlegged pilot is easy to find even though it wasn't finished and the pilot wasn't picked up.

Or even Wonder Woman and the Star Riders, because you can torrent a mini-comic based on it and there are screenshots of the aborted toyline, plus we know a pilot was in production and there's model art based on it.

...and ironically, both of these have more information available than this show does, so by that standard, they can't be cut or merged.

Ok. Totally unpublished works go in Unpublished Works. "Unpublished" works where already 3 tropes are reliably known (=which requires at least some publishing) would be ready for page creation. I don't think we need to carve out some arbitrary rule here - just extrapolate from already existing guidelines.

Agree on the locking though.

A work doesn't have to be published to get tropes. The examples I gave never came to fruition in their mediums of choice, but got far enough into prototyping to still get "tropes" that are not pure speculation.

"<These examples> would be added if <this example> is allowed" isn't an argument against the latter.

But it does suggest a problem that this page is highlighting. You know, funny I used Wonder Woman as an example, because just looking at it's page, I can count multiple pilots that are easily viewed online that can all be given their own pages as works if this page is kept on the basis of a bootlegged music video and an interview.

It does beg the question of what is the line between a work and speculation, which is actually something that sounds like its broader than this crowner.

edited 13th Sep '12 3:19:43 PM by Rebochan

^Given that we have 3 tropes here for a work, and the crowner is heading towards "keep" (for now), I don't see the issue. At best, bring it to Wiki Talk.

Made a thread in Wiki Talk.

Somehow I don't think obscure crowners should define policy though.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13475756170A01160100&page=1#1