"We can't compare ourselves to great authors"

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of people saying that we can't compare ourselves to the greats, take lessons from the greats, imitate the greats, just because we might be, as of right now, not-great.

Screw that. So great person X pulled off perilous, dangerous idea or technique Y, but we couldn't because we don't have the skills, the perspective, the experience required? So what? If you try, and fail, you've learned something, and, next time you try, you'll know what to watch out for. Not trying at all, however, is cowardly, and dumb.

To learn any skill, it's simple. Set out to do it, take your passion, and make it happen. Don't just try, try as if you expected to succeed, try as if you expected to surpass your mark. Then if you succeed, good. And if you failed, good: reflect upon how you failed, and do your best to win next time.

But don't second guess yourself. Don't inhibit yourself. You have no use for social modesty. True modesty is to take responsibility for one's failures, and do better. Not to try at all... is cowardice.

You know, I agree with you; that attitude really bothers me when I see it.

There seems to be this idea that pops up now and then in online communities that writers (in this case, but it also comes up for budding artists, game developers, etc. etc.) aren't really trying to improve, or get published, or create something lasting. If they don't, of course, that's fine; it's their choice. But the default assumption shouldn't be that any writer you meet online just treats their writing as a silly little game. Some of us take it extremely seriously.

I think this usually comes up in a scenario like this:

"I want to write [controversial idea]"

"That might be hard to do, because I don't know your personal skills at all, I am going to make a general assumption and say do something else."

"But [Very Talented Writer] did it!"

"I am assuming you are probably not on that level, and thus encouraging you to once again not do it. "

Now, neither person is in the wrong here, in my opinion.

Indeed, but "proceed with caution, play it safe, fight only battles you know you can win" comes from love: it's The Prophet who looks back and shares their wisdom with the younger generation, who wants to protect them from harmful decisions, so they can grow and shine, and, hopefully, surpass them. Being a successful teacher... there are few pleasures that compare to that.

"You probably suck, so how dare you say that because a great author proved it was doable it means you could even try? I take it as a personal affront, why, the temerity!" comes from The Green-Eyed Monster, either hatred of people who dare to attempt to succeed where you failed, or of newbies who have the audacity to think they could catch up to you, and maybe, *gasp*, outrun you. Stereotypical of some breeds of English Majors and other scholars, and the sort of people who build a scholastic around worshiping the work of geniuses (preferably dead ones). Rather than learn what the predecessors did right and attempt to find ways to reproduce it, rather than cultivating their legacy, they eviscerate it, pluck its brains out with a spoon, embalm it, mummify it, and encase it in a golden coffin at the bottom of thousands of tons of dead rock, and call it a homage and a monument and then fidget and get all busy around it, contemplating its greatness. Murderers and cowards, the lot of them, enemies of life, they belong with the dust they love so: may they choke on it.

Yeesh, someone's bitter.

I usually seen the advice thrown around when someone's trying to work with a really overdone idea. I guess you could do it well, but chances are you'll turn away most readers with the description alone.

edited 17th May '12 8:49:05 AM by RTaco

You shouldn't compare yourself to a great author because it is arrogant and pretentious. Yes, it's fine to draw inspiration from them, but don't make direct comparisons, otherwise people will think you're an ass.

You mean a Dead Horse Trope or an Audience-Alienating Premise?

And bitter is not the word. More like angry. The best thing you can do with Caustic Critic types is use them as unwilling Drill Sergeant Nasty: they only mean to harm you and put you down, but that doesn't mean you can't exploit them for all they are worth and then let them choke on their envy as you grow stronger.

Also, writing is a silly game, but that doesn't mean it isn't extremely Serious Business. There's no reason these can't overlap.

Then people would be jumping to conclusions, I think. What's wrong with saying "I'm doing this right now kind of like that thing James Joyce did in that one very cool short story, I hope I can pull it off in a way that doesn't look too lame.". As long as you don't start comparing yourself superior without the credentials, there's nothing wrong with you simply stating that you're trying to emulate them even though you might not be at the level where trying that has good chances of succeeding at all.

edited 17th May '12 9:05:11 AM by TheHandle

I think it's better to just say what your work is instead of what it's trying to be like.

Yeah, it's fine to say you're doing something in the style of another author or work. Everyone does that. Just remember that you're still creating an original work and you don't want to just be copying someone else.

Yeah, you know what? I think it's a pretty safe bet that random Person X on the internet is not going to be the next Shakespeare, Vonnegut, or even Stephen King. You probably won't even be the next Stephanie Meyer.

So I'm not particularly fussed about this. If you DO become the next James Joyce, feel free to rub it in my face when your novel receives incredible acclaim.

And if you ask people's opinions on a concept, don't be surprised when they give you their honest opinion: that it would be difficult to pull off. Either do it anyway to prove them wrong or listen and choose something less ambitious. But don't get insulted that they think you're not Isaac Asimov, Edgar Allen Poe, David Sedaris, David Mamet, or Tom Stoppard. Or that a concept might be beyond your ability if you are not a high level writer. Both are entirely reasonable opinions. That you solicited.

Haters gonna hate. Do your thing. And don't get your panties/boxers in a bunch if someone on the internet doesn't think you're talented. There are people on the internet who repeatedly say THE BEATLES aren't talented.

There is some merit to being good at copying other people, though. As long as you don't pretend it's the genuine article, it can be a fun thing to do.

There was one short story of Snow White And The Seven Dwarves, masquerading as something "written by JRR Tolkien and compiled and edited by his son Christopher", which was actually pretty funny and perfectly plausible.

Talent is cheap. Hard work is what matters. The Beatles worked very hard. They worked till they ached in their bones, working for the man every night and day. And I don't think anyone here ever said "I am Magical Genius Writer X", so telling them "You're not Magical Genius Writer X" is not only a tautology, it's unprovoked.

Excellent post, otherwise.

edited 17th May '12 10:48:44 AM by TheHandle

Given the second, very similar-thematically thread the OP launched, I also kind of get the feeling that this is more of a bitter rant then a serious attempt at discussion.

Also, 'autors'?

I am always serious about attempting discussion. When I put forward effort into writing an opinion down, it is in the hope that some effort be expended in at least attempting to pick at it, since my base assumption is that my thoughts are never flawless. Your post pointed out a typo, which is nice, of course, but next time please include something more substantial besides "I doubt this person's commitment to rigorously discuss their thoughts", otherwise I will doubt your commitment to rigorously discuss your thoughts. As for the typo, I have proven many times that I am frankly helpless without a spell-checker, at least when on a keyboard, and I humbly apologize for it. At least I don't do Rouge Angles of Satin.

I'm sorry, but you've posted two threads with very similar rant-like opening posts. It's hard not to get the impression from that that you're less interested in a full-fledged discussion then in simply venting about some negative critics.

As for 'autors', I realize it's a typo. It simply drives me nuts to see them in the titles of threads, especially since they can be fixed.

@Typo: How do I fix it besides asking for a mod's help?

@Content: The rant opening posts were self-demonstrating: on one hand, I'm attempting a very heavy-handed and clumsy shout-out to Nietzsche, especially the "Reason in Philosophy" fragment from Twilight of the Idols, by making a parallel between conservative critics and idealist philosophy. His style is naturally ranty, over-the-top, and verbose, with lengthy phrases full of sub-clauses, but is actually very structured underneath... something I've failed to achieve.

On the other hand, I am also attempting to imitate the Break Them by Talking methods of some Internet Caustic Critic types: honestly, from what I see, fictional speeches to that effect pale before the reality of what you can see on the Web. By paying close attention to how the most intelligent-yet-virulent virtual bile dispensers function, I am hoping to draw inspiration for the use of this trope in future fiction I intend to write.

Believe me, if I only wanted to vent, I would post in a blog, not here.

Isn't there an option to edit thread titles somewhere?

Is there?

-presses the holler button for title change-

Over the months, I'd learn how to take the intuitive with the holler button.

Personally, it's okay to try to at least emulate an element another author is famous for. You might or might not do it better, but understanding the element is important. As long as you don't trap yourself, or getting all snobby about it, it should be fine.

edited 17th May '12 3:21:22 PM by chihuahua0

You mean take the initiative.

I don't have anything against someone simply comparing themselves to famous authors, but those comparisons are usually coupled with excuses.

"Why did you do X with your writing?" "[Famous author] did it, so I did too!" "You didn't do it as well as [Famous Author] did." "[Famous author] did it, so I did too!"

Groan.

That is the problem: While telling someone that they can't do something in their writing because "only the 'experts' are allowed" is ludicrous nonsense, so is claiming that your story is automatically golden "because X did it!"

I like to compare myself to Shakespeare by saying, "I'm not Shakespeare." But that's not the issue here.

But it's probably not such a good idea to say, "They did it, so I'm going to do it too." It's probably not a good idea to compare yourself to anyone, either.

edited 17th May '12 8:22:05 PM by BlackElephant

This should be a non-issue because if you are comparable to a great author you probably have written enough to prove it. It's only an actual issue if you sit around comparing your genius to famous writers while not actually writing a damn thing.

That would be me but I really cannot imagine myself writing that good.

If nobody took risks, literature would be very boring.

That's true for almost every field of endeavor, especially the Arts. This song is now about a writer and his editors: