Misused: All Myths Are True

'In some way based off of' is really not close enough. Fantasy is a recognisably different genre from folklore and mythology.

And I don't see that that's the case. Many of the examples take the form of discovering over the course of the story that many myths, folktales, urban legends, etc, were secretly true all along but not publicly known for a variety of reasons. (Stargate. The X Files. The Long Dark Teatime Of The Soul.)

edited 22nd Apr '13 4:13:17 PM by Noaqiyeum

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

"Many of the examples of X contain Y" is not the same as "All X are Y". Is The Masquerade a necessary condition of All Myths Are True (without a masquerade, it's not AMAT), or not?

Is Fantasy Kitchen Sink + The Masquerade a sufficiently notable combination of tropes to justify a trope all of its own?

And more to the point — is this distinction just being cooked up after the fact to justify having two tropes that nobody can tell apart?

edited 22nd Apr '13 5:14:37 PM by johnnye

Folklore and Mythology is not a genre. Fiction based off of the two are fantasy. I do not see your point in the least. Otherwise, what Johnnye said.

edited 22nd Apr '13 5:25:56 PM by EditorPallMall

Keep it breezy!

So maybe what AMAT needs to be is something akin to Myths Based In Fact. (Probably with an In Universe Examples Only tag.)

EDIT AFTER REREADING MOST OF THE THREAD: And that sends us straight back to square one, doesn't it.

edited 22nd Apr '13 8:16:10 PM by StarSword

*facepalm*

Keep it breezy!

Yeah, sorry about that. I shouldn't drunk-post.

I just went back through five pages of discussion and it looks like we're running around in circles.

There are works of fantasy that work directly from real-world folklore and mythology and those that do not. This seems like a very obvious point of difference to me, and one that has been pointed out earlier in this thread without really being settled. We had much of this discussion on page 7.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Okay, you can YKTTW something about that. That's largely unrelated to the current page's content. (Other than being one more, new, interpretation of the phrase "all myths are true.")

I mean, maybe "All Myths Are True" could mean "Everything exists in some world." Or, "all great athletes are loyal." Or, "here are examples of self-contradictions." But the current page doesn't cover any of those. We've solved the current page's problem.

The problem was that the definition overlapped with other tropes and did not match the page usage. Problem one has been solved. Problem two has not.

'New' how? There was an ongoing discussion here. We got as far as figuring out that this page was different without quite pinning down in what way to redefine it.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

"There are works of fantasy that work directly from real-world folklore and mythology and those that do not."

I am sorry, I legitimately do not understand you. Can you elaborate and give examples?

Either way, this still has nothing to do with The Masquerade so I do not see your point.

Keep it breezy!

New compared with what the page currently contains. We can discuss lots of tropes in this thread, but they weren't part of the page.

The difference between folklore and fantasy is pretty well embodied by the difference between The Fair Folk and Our Elves Are Better. Or another: Magic The Gathering is decidedly a Fantasy Kitchen Sink, but decidedly not All Myths Are True. Everything is fantasy-inspired, but hardly anything is derived from folklore and mythology.

...okay, let's back up. The basic practical distinction between Fantasy Kitchen Sink and All Myths Are True seems to be what Troacctid pointed out here. Fantasy Kitchen Sink implies, or at least attracts examples of, works that sort of toss as many things as possible into the mix in more or less gonzo fashion - everything exists, and there is so much 'everything' that everything is constantly jostling shoulders with each other. Consequently, an example on Fantasy Kitchen Sink is often very much an Urban Fantasy Kitchen Sink (or otherwise very cosmopolitan in that way).

All Myths Are True, on the other hand, is... not that. It doesn't get "werewolves, fairies, aliens, dragons, vampires, wizards, zombies, elves, talking dogs, robots, Cthulhu..." unless there's some sort of common thread, plotwise or thematic, tying them together. Or something. The Masquerade is often one such thematic thread, but so is The Magic Goes Away, Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane, Clap Your Hands If You Believe... One point might be that All Myths Are True, but they remain mythic. Pinning down exactly what this distinction is is what the discussion was working on.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Okay, I get it. But Fantasy kitchen sink includes a slew of fantasy elements (that excludes science fiction concepts such as robots and aliens by the way) often associated with the genre. Which is 95 ~ 99% based on folklore and mythology (Cthulhu was the only element that is not based on mythology or folklore on your list and he's an alien). 'Myth & Folklore Kitchen Sink' would be a Ridiculously Similar Trope to 'Fantasy Kitchen Sink'.

EDIT: Wait, article for Fantasy Kitchen Sink describes science fiction elements as being apart of the Fantasy Kitchen Sink. We have another trope for that.

edited 22nd Apr '13 11:10:27 PM by EditorPallMall

Keep it breezy!

Sci-Fi Kitchen Sink has ten examples and about as many wicks. I don't know if it deserves a page.

"People have been formatting their examples differently" is not a reason to keep All Myths Are True and Fantasy Kitchen Sink as separate pages. How are the tropes different?

SFKS is definitely a distinctive trope, but it is need of wicks (why is Star Trek not listed?) and a general overhaul. We will save that discussion for another thread.

Keep it breezy!

"We got as far as figuring out that this page was different without quite pinning down in what way to redefine it."

Redefine it? Is that what you're trying to do? If so, that's not a good reaction to having two tropes that people have been confusing with each other. For one thing, how is it going to stop people confusing the two? Whatever definition you pin under "All Myths Are True" is going to get the same kind of misuse.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to redefine AMAT for the sake of redefining it. If it were legitimately a different trope, it would have become obvious by now. If you can find a trope that differs from FKS in some meaningful way, by all means YKTTW under a different name and poach as many examples from AMAT as you like, but I really think that name has to become a disambig page, for the sake of our souls and those of future generations.

edited 23rd Apr '13 4:08:18 AM by johnnye

OK, considering all the discussion we've had, I feel All Myths Are True can be read in several different ways and as such is too ambiguous to be a good trope name. I see that some of its use overlaps with The Legend of Chekhov and Fantasy Kitchen Sink; is there some ground not covered by either?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think there might be a way to recycle some of AMAT into a legitimate trope. But, yes, a whole new YKTTW might make more sense than redefining AMAT. That way, the precise definition would be intact from the start. Sometimes it's easier just to start from scratch.

I guess the name All Myths Are True really is a little too ambiguous. The word "myths" means too many things. If someone wants to start a new YKTTW, make the name more specific.

Oh, and I don't know if it's been mentioned, but we also have A Mythology Is True. If that matters here.

It might possibly be a subtrope. I think you're underestimating the amount of fantasy worldbuilding in fiction that isn't lifted more-or-less directly from folklore and mythology, though. Hmmm... hold that thought.

It's not just a matter of format. Magic The Gathering, as mentioned, is Fantasy Kitchen Sink but not All Myths Are True. Indiana Jones is All Myths Are True but not Fantasy Kitchen Sink. Or, for two examples by the same author - The Chronicles Of Narnia is Fantasy Kitchen Sink (only), while The Space Trilogy is All Myths Are True (only) (I think). And of course there are things that are both, like The Dresden Files.

Sorry, I meant clarify the definition. The misuse is a combination of the name and the definition, both of which overlap partially with Fantasy Kitchen Sink

Well, I think so, but I admit it's hard to tell for sure, since both pages are still such a mess.

I left the thread alone for a bit to think about this, and I concluded I agree that YKTTW is a better place for this discussion. Here's what I propose:

1. Remove the tropes from All Myths Are True that duplicate The Legend of Chekhov, Fantasy Kitchen Sink, Crossover Cosmology, or A Mythology Is True.
2. If any examples remain, see whether they have any commonalities and move them into a new YKTTW for All Myths Are True. (The definition is a mess and can be ignored.)
3. Then redirect the current page to Fantasy Kitchen Sink until further notice.
4. Continue this conversation in the YKTTW.

Is this acceptable?

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

I agree with the idea.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Sounds good to me.

Sounds good.

I concur.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Good solution.

Yeah. That works.