Homosexuality VS Camp: is homophobia a projected misogyny?

I'm starting to notice that most of the hate labelled "fag" is actually directed towards anyone who behaves... how shall I say it... high on life. Dramatc. Extra-cheerful. Too friendly. Too overtly or showily kind or sensitive. Talking about one's feelings. Getting sentimenal. Dancing and singing. Having "cute" mannerisms and affectations... lisp, singsong voice, Milking the Giant Cow, being vain about one's appearance, meticulous attention to detail and presentation... engaging in and enjoying nurturing and caretaking activities: sewing, knitting, gardening, babysitting, cooking, cleaning.... or expressionistic, "self-indulgent" activities such as scrapbooking, painting, writing poetry...

Apparently, it's okay for women to be like that (except for the creative endeavors: only men were allowed to do those until quite recently, including the serious kind of cooking: after all, Female Success is Family). See Double Standard for detailed explanations as to why: that index is a goldmine.

And it's not just our modern society. Even in societies where homo-sexuality is common*

, it is often the case that only being the dom-top is manly, and leaves your virtue intact, but not the opposite. You give anal, but you don't take it. You take fellatio, but you don't give it. If you pay too much attention to your appearance, if you expend too much effort to be fashionable, you're being-like-a-woman. Which is subversive in a passive-aggressive way. Creepy. Bad.

Your crime isn't that you enjoy sex with men. Your crime is that you are effeminate. Girly. A cissy. A wimp. A "fag".

And nowhere is this more apparent than when it comes to womanizers, especially if they are Camp Straight, but they don't even need to do that. I've seen perfectly normal-behaving womanizers being called "gay" and "maricón". Which got the callers some very puzzled looks, I can tell you that. Obviously, the insulter is using the wrong word, but what is it that bothers him, what is he denouncing?

Womanizers. Up to a point, they can be "champions" of "manliness", they're "getting to third base" for "our team". But if they actually prefer the company of women to that of men, if they're pulchritudinous and fastidious when it comes to their own appearance, if they become "refined"... well, they're basically the "war of the sexes" variant of Going Native. And that's no good.

As for butch girls, like the effeminate men, they're just taking a role that doesn't belong to them. Which is why both groups get so much flak, regardless of their actual sexual preference.

edited 2nd May '12 5:14:19 AM by MarkThis

I've seen the word "femmephobia" used to describe this attitude, which is not limited to despising effeminate behavior in men. The Lad-ette (as long as she's cute) is cooler than any girly girl, for instance.

edited 2nd May '12 6:25:10 AM by Karalora

Stuff what I do.

What definition of "womanizer" are we talking about? Because according to the dictionary and Wikipedia, "womanizer" simply means a man who is promiscuous. If that's the case, a guy who is feminist but Really Gets Around would still be defined as a womanizer. Even if we're talking about misogyny, the question would be if we're talking about a guy who does not acknowledge the virtues of femininity or a guy who prioritizes his own desires over respecting others.

edited 2nd May '12 6:35:00 AM by KingZeal

Technically, if someone just hates stereotypically feminine behavior, regardless of who is expressing it, then they're not a misogynist.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

I'll give my perspective on this. My roomate is gay, he isn't effeminate in any real way, and he's one of my best friends. When it comes to people he has dated and brought over, ironically enough, we both can't stand the fops. I can't quite explain why I don't like them, but effeminate men, regardless of orientation, make me want to either vomit or go into a homocidal rage.

For me I think it's that I believe it's a disruption of the natural order, that a male shouldn't act like that unless it's in jest. That it's shameful to my sex when they do that, sort of like if someone who plays on the same sports team as you goes off and does something extremely moronic.

Now when it comes to women.. I've always had a soft-spot for tomboys. I have friends who are highly effeminate valley girl women, but I've never had the urge to date them. I guess I just don't see eye to eye enough with a really feminine perspective to get along with them as well in a relationship context. I guess I'm just not a huge fan of "dainty" things.

My roomate got in an argument and dumped(imo) his most obnoxious boyfriend ever by saying "God damnit if I wanted to date a chick I'd be straight you faggot!" I feel bad for the guy, he just wants some normal laid back dude who isn't a massive fairy or a raging asshole compensating for his sexuality by trying to be super controlling.

I think he meant that Pretty Boy womanizers are victims of this discrimination. Heck, they don't even need to womanzie that much, it's enough that women swoon over them and swarm around them. Gruff-type macho-man womanizers are usually exempt. Think Justin Bieber or Robert Pattison as opposed to, say, Henry VII or Snoop Dogg.

I think part of it is that the first kind are prized for their attributes rather than their agency, and that they go out of their way to game women with subtlety and charm. Whereas the macho-man womanizer gets his women through the sheer power of his... well, power, and doesn't go out of his way to get them: they're sort of a side-effect of being more powerful than other men, little more than flowerhoneypots, status symbols.

You need to rephrase that. Otherwise the "casual reader" will read it as "don't be a fop near Barkey or you'll make him want to kill something".

edited 2nd May '12 7:22:01 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I find people who act in that stereotypically effeminate/gay way to be very irritating, and I've met several people in real life who really do behave that way.

It's a personality thing, some people just don't get along.

I don't particularly care if other people "act effeminate" or not. One old colleague of mine sometimes liked to wear a skirt — he was not particularly feminine otherwise, he even had a beard, but I suppose that's what he liked to wear.

I'm not clear why I should worry about that.

If one is stereotypically effeminate and obnoxious, I will be of course a little annoyed; but I will be just as annoyed if one is stereotypically masculine and obnoxious. Otherwise, eh, let them paint their own nails if that's what they like to do.

edited 2nd May '12 8:27:50 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I must ask, what kind of skirt was it?

Very long, usually black. It was not kilts or anything like that, they were definitely meant for women.

edited 2nd May '12 8:21:49 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I'm growing more tolerant of it. I used to have a real problem with Camp Gay types, but I've realized that it was an internalized fear that people would see me that way too, just because I was gay, and it would destroy any semblance of respect I'd gouged out for myself, personal or otherwise, from the ashes of a childhood of depression.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"

I meant more the cut. Peasant skirts are very comfortable while I would have a hard time imagining a guy being comfortable in a denim mini-skirt.

I can't exactly say where that comes from or whether there is "a rule". The feeling I associate the most with my disgust of Camp Gay is "this is the guy who gives all gays a bad name and makes life harder to them". So I guess there are as many reasons as individuals...

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

Eh, I don't remember precisely, and it's not like I know much about skirts

They reached the ankles, however, they were not mini skirts or stuff like that.

edited 2nd May '12 8:25:22 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

Peasant skirts, A-line skirts, and pleated skirts are loose at the bottom and allow for ease of motion. Most mini-skirts and pencil skirts are tighter and hug the body more, making them restrict motion more, but look "sexier." I can imagine why a guy might want to wear the former but not the latter.

edited 2nd May '12 8:30:43 AM by ohsointocats

I think that I just have a personality clash with guys who fall into your standard definition of Camp, but their sexuality doesn't really enter into it. I don't really get on with your Alpha Male He-Man types either.

Not really an issue when it comes to girls though, for some reason.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

While in principle I support feminism and gender equality, I do have some pretty traditional ideas about what a man should and shouldn't be, and effeminate men annoy me to no end. I'm less judgmental about women, but for them, too, goes that I don't like the overly "girly" types, whereas I really enjoy the company of The Lad-ette.

In short, I'd prefer my whole world to be Rated M for Manly.

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...

OK. I guess they were peasant skirts, then. They were not very tight.

I am relatively traditionalist myself when it comes to my personal looks — admittedly, I grew my hair long for a while, but I cut it because it was just too bothersome to take care of. And I honestly cannot remember the last time I went out of my home without wearing a tie or a bowtie

But I don't really care about what images others project, as long as it does not inconvenience me personally. I admit, it would feel weird if a male called me "darling"; but it would feel just as weird if they called me "bro", and frankly it would not be a big deal in either case.

As for women, I gave up trying to infer what "type" I am attracted to. There seems to be very little correlation with... well, with everything.

edited 2nd May '12 11:05:53 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I have been known to call close male friends - well, one of them - things like "dear" for no reason other than because I can.

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)

One thing that puzzles me is how I sometimes hear, mostly through the Internet, that males hugging males is weird. I am not a very huggy person, in general; but if I and a close male friend meet and we've not seen each other in a while, a hug is not uncommon.

edited 2nd May '12 9:50:40 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

In my case(and I'm sure I'm not the only one), there's an overlap that may be misleading: many people that annoy me as hell are what it may be considered "stereotipical campy gay", but I don't hate them 'cause they are gay, neither 'cause they act "girly": I find them annoying because I'm a reserved, quiet person and anyone that acts loud and dramatic clashes against my personality.

I discovered this because I've found that yes: it is possible to women and men to act "girlish" and yet be modest and quiet, in the same vein that I found all that "macho worship" annoying for being so over-the-top and ridiculous in the same degree that the camp stereotypes

edited 2nd May '12 10:43:13 AM by Anthony_H

I see long hair as a very important part of being Rated M for Manly... well, you've got to be a Metal Head to understand that, I guess.

Heh, I'm the exact opposite: men who act "effeminate" do annoy me, but I'm quite fond of ham.

Mache dich, mein Herze, rein...

<giggle>

On topic: Camp Gay irritates me as far as flamboyance in general irritates me. I find someone like Alan Carr, for example, extremely grating to watch and listen to.

edited 2nd May '12 11:05:30 AM by pagad

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

Aaargh

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I can't quite explain why I don't like them, but effeminate men, regardless of orientation, make me want to either vomit or go into a homocidal rage.

For me I think it's that I believe it's a disruption of the natural order, that a male shouldn't act like that unless it's in jest. That it's shameful to my sex when they do that, sort of like if someone who plays on the same sports team as you goes off and does something extremely moronic.

Please, continue. I'm sure we'd all be delighted to hear how feminine men are a disgrace to their gender. Incidentally, what are your opinions on genderqueer folks?

At the very least, you're coming across as really fucking transphobic here *

.

edited 2nd May '12 11:08:10 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?