Wick cleanup: Reptiles Are Abhorrent

I'd classify this as a fairly high-level supertrope for all cases where reptile = bad. Like I said, it's pretty much the same idea as Dark Is Evil.

^^^ It's a lovely definition — of a different trope. This trope is about works using animals as characters. Within such works, there is a noticeable pattern of using reptiles as the bad guys. Or of making the bad guys reptiles. Whichever way you want to look at it.

Maybe it needs to be trope transplanted to a new name, so that the supertrope "Reptilian Traits = Villain" can be made, but let's not throw away a perfectly good subtrope in the process of making the supertrope.

edited 29th Feb '12 3:56:40 PM by Madrugada

I think there's only a noticeable pattern of using certain reptiles as bad guys - snakes, lizards, alligators and crocodiles, snapping turtles. How often do you see an evil gecko? Or an evil pond turtle?

Well, okay, there's Yertle the Turtle, but he's the only one.

edit: but re-reading my definition, I see your point. Maybe the description just needs some refining.

edited 29th Feb '12 4:34:26 PM by abk0100

No, it isn't. I already covered this. Please read the entire definition before attempting to contribute to the discussion. Don't stop at the first sentence.

If you had bothered to read the second sentence, you will see that it explicitly says that the trope is not limited to animal fiction. It then goes on to list several other ways the trope manifests.

• Mind you, this is not limited to animal fiction.
• Even in fiction where the world is entirely populated by humans or humanoids, the villains will often be reptiles, reptiles with Applied Phlebotinum to make them more frightening, or reptile-evolved or reptile-themed.
• Snakes are especially popular in this department, and the Big Bad may have a whole snake obsession going on. He may even top things off by turning into a giant snake, if he wasn't one already.
• The trope even turns up, if only by metaphor, in non-fiction; saying that someone is "a snake" or "cold blooded" is enough to get across that you're dealing with a nasty character.

Any use of associating villains with reptiles is this trope.

A single evil reptile villain is this trope.

Calling the badguy a "snake" by way of insult is this trope.

A purely human villain that keeps a pet snake and uses lots of snake imagery is this trope.

• This trope is fairly consistent, but it's far from omnipresent. Many people think turtles are cute. They have a reputation for wisdom as well, therefore, turtles can be good guys. In addition, Frilled Lizards, with their cute habit of scampering around on their hind legs with their frill extended, and a handful of other cute lizards, such as Geckos, often get the same consideration

Having the badguy be a snake or crocodile and the good guy being a cute lizard or turtle is this trope.

edited 29th Feb '12 4:59:57 PM by Catbert

The fact that a trope has decayed doesn't mean that the decay is a good thing.

• This is not limited to animal fiction; even in fiction where it's all humans or humanoids, the villains will be reptiles, reptiles with Applied Phlebotinum to make them more frightening, or reptile-evolved or reptile-themed.

The above line is in the oldest version of the trope I can find.

Its isn't trope decay. The trope has always included non-reptilian villains with reptile motifs and not just reptiles as villains.

• This trope is fairly consistent except when it isn't. You see, most people think turtles are cute. Therefore, turtles can be good guys.

The above line is in the oldest version of the trope I can find.

Its isn't trope decay. It has always made exceptions for turtles, and adding in the additional exceptions for the more popular types of lizards is elaboration and improvement, not decay.

The only problem with this trope is the way the description is structured. It would be a lot better if it had a single thesis statement first, and then listed the several different ways the trope manifests. Right now it has as its first sentence just one of the many ways that the trope manifests, and then goes on to list several other ways the trope manifests.

The reason it is written that way is an artifact of Example As Thesis writing. It original started out with a line going "So, you're watching the series "So, you're watching the series "Flopsy Flops and the Fuzzy Bunch" or whatever. The heroes include a dog, a cat, a mouse and blah. They have wonderful adventures and occasionally get into scraps with the bullies - an alligator and a... Carolina Anole?"

However, that eventually go scrapped, which is just as well because more often then not Example As Thesis causes more problems than it solves, because it gets people too focused on one of the ways the trope can manifest instead of the many ways the trope can manifest.

Which it is doing now. It isn't just about reptiles about villains. It is about associating evil with reptiles, either literally or symbolically, because many humans find reptiles to be abhorrent and scary.

edited 29th Feb '12 6:12:50 PM by Catbert

At the very least, are there any objections to me removing examples that are clearly "some reptiles in this work are evil, others are good" without any pattern?

I think it also needs a more clear description, but the above is the worst part of the misuse.

No idea how these things could be legit use. Kill them.

If the reptiles that are evil are the snakes, and the non-snakes are non-evil, it is still this trope.

edited 10th Mar '12 4:55:21 PM by Catbert

Yes, thanks for reminding me. I'll watch for that variation.*

OK, I've done my best, at least as a first pass. There is still probably a lot of cleaning up to do, especially since I left the questionable and borderline examples intact, and many examples could probably stand to be rephrased.

Tangentially, would Thundercats be an example? The heroes are all cat people, but I seem to remember the enemies mostly being reptilian.

edited 10th Mar '12 7:12:58 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Rango is not an example; the main villain is actually the tortoise mayor, and those aren't associated with villainy.

However, Catbert is right about the meaning of this trope. It's not about a villainous reptile contrasted with heroic mammals. It's about how reptile traits (Mostly those found in snakes) and associations are often used as markers of evil.

This ranges from turning into a snake (That bad guy from Conan the Barbarian) to owning a snake (Voldemort) to just being described as one metaphorically (Viscerys) to just having a few snakelike features. It's a trope as old, if not older, than Genesis.

edited 14th Mar '12 8:25:57 PM by Scardoll

Agreed. But it also includes being a snake. Or a lizard or crocodile, at least as currently defined.

edited 14th Mar '12 11:17:14 PM by Stratadrake

That has always been a part of the trope, not the entirety of the trope. The trope has always in been about more than just "Heroic Mammal vs. Evil Reptile" animal stories, and it has always explictly said so.

You are trying to define the trope by one example of the trope, not the entire trope defintion. That is wrong.

edited 15th Mar '12 7:01:36 AM by Catbert

I think there's a definite supertrope of "good species, evil species"; vultures, spiders, snakes, rats, and hyenas tend to be evil, while lions, mice, and eagles tend to be good. There are some that bounce between the lines; wolves were traditionally the villains, but in more recent works they tend to be loyal and noble.

However, this isn't just about species; it's about reptile-association being used to represent evil (Mostly because of primal human fears). The biblical serpent wasn't contrasted with fluffy bunnies, but its form is clearly a suggestion towards its nature.

Rango actually counts as a subversion, now that I think about it. Rattlesnake Jake turns out to have some honor despite the movie setting him up earlier as the fearsome and cold-blooded killer, while the nice-looking tortoise turns out to be the corrupt Big Bad.

Species-Coded for Your Convenience is the Super-Trope you are looking for. That and Animal Stereotypes.

Rango had a Corrupt Hick tortoise (not to mention a deadly Giant Flyer bird), but it clearly plays with the Snakes Are Evil concept.

Just because a given work doesn't always play a trope consistently straight and pure doesn't mean it isn't using it.

The Lord Of The Rings and Star Wars both have badguys wearing white and good guys wearing black, but both are still strong examples of Dark Is Evil.

Likewise, in Dungeons And Dragons, given that it has lots of different races and lots of different writers there have been a handful of honorable reptilian races, but the majority of the most prominate examples, especially the Snake People, are more often evil or at least savage and barbaric than not. (Baring metallic dragons, which are more of a Our Dragons Are Different than this issue).

edited 15th Mar '12 8:49:18 AM by Catbert

I think the next step is rewriting the description, but I don't know how to do that sort of thing.

I agree with whoever is saying that it should not be limited to individuals who are reptiles, but should include typical reptilian traits, and should allow for certain types of non-cute reptiles (especially snakes and crocodilians) being worse than other reptiles.

edited 20th Mar '12 10:51:03 AM by ArcadesSabboth

What about a rename? Reptilian Traits Make You Evil sounds like a clearer name to me.

I don't really feel like it's bad enough to need renaming. You could do a wick check to see if the wicks are worse than the examples, I guess.

How about this?

Reptiles Are Abhorrent refers to the association between reptiles and villainy. This trope manifests itself in several basic ways. The most basic way is to have villains that are reptiles. The animal stories, villains might be anthropomorphized versions of Real Life reptiles. In Speculative Fiction, they might be fantastic beings such as Lizard Folk, Snake People or Reptilian aliens.

Even when the badguys are not themselves reptiles, they may have a some sort of reptilian theme. Perhaps they are an Animal-Themed Superbeing with reptilian related powers. The villain might also have reptilian pets and/or exhibit a special empathy with reptiles. They may even be able to turn into a snake. Even if they have no special powers related to reptiles, they might use reptile related Animal Motifs and/or Theme Naming. The trope even turns up, if only by metaphor, in non-fiction; saying that someone is "a snake" or "cold blooded" is enough to get across that you're dealing with a nasty character.

This trope is generally not applied with equal frequency and intensity to all reptiles. Snakes (especially venoumous ones) and crocodiles tend to be reptiles most associated with villains. Meanwhile, turtles and various lizards seen a cute and harmless, such a geckos and frilled lizards, are less likely to be associated with villainy. Amphibians sometimes fall under this trope. Toads in particular have become heavily correlated with abhorrence due to their poisonous secretions, association with Witchcraft and the myth that touching one will give you warts. However, there are also many favorable depictions of frogs in fiction.

This trope is fairly consistent, but it's far from omnipresent, so do not list aversions. Do not list subversions unless they actually invoke this trope. Compare with Heroically Aligned Reptile. This is also closely related to Species-Coded for Your Convenience.

No Real Life Examples Please

edited 2nd Apr '12 6:16:00 PM by Catbert

That's good, but it's missing two things:

1. Reptiles, and other characters, with more stereotypically reptilian traits (i.e. visible claws and scales) may be more evil than those without them (i.e. Ninja Turtles). That kind of goes with the cute reptiles part, but should be stated outright.

2. The reptiles or reptile-themed characters, or characters themed with particular types of reptiles, need to consistently be villainous. If the work has loads of evil snakes and loads of good snakes, and there's no pattern, then this trope doesn't apply. It's an aggregate trope, not a character trope.

Let me try to edit your version:

Reptiles Are Abhorrent refers to the association between reptiles and villainy. This trope manifests itself in several basic ways. The most basic way is to have reptiles that are consistently villainous. In animal stories, villains might be anthropomorphic versions of Real Life reptiles, while the heroes are cute mammals and birds. In Speculative Fiction, they might be fantastic beings such as Lizard Folk, Snake People or Reptilian aliens.

Even when the bad guys are not actual reptiles, they may have some sort of reptilian theme. Perhaps they are an Animal-Themed Superbeing with reptile-related powers. The villain might have reptilian pets and/or exhibit a special empathy with reptiles. They may even be able to turn into a snake. Even if they have no special powers related to reptiles, they might use reptile related Animal Motifs and/or Theme Naming. The trope even turns up, if only by metaphor, in non-fiction; saying that someone is "a snake" or "cold blooded" is enough to get across that you're dealing with a nasty character.

This trope is generally not applied with equal frequency and intensity to all reptiles. Snakes (especially venomous ones) and crocodiles tend to be the reptiles most associated with villains. Meanwhile, turtles and various lizards seen as cute and harmless, such a geckos and frilled lizards, are less likely to be associated with villainy. Stereotypically reptilian features such as tails, claws, visible scales, and slit pupils, may distinguish villainous reptiles from friendly ones.

Amphibians, though not reptilian, sometimes fall under this trope. Toads in particular have become heavily correlated with abhorrence due to their supposedly poisonous secretions, association with witches, and the myth that touching one will give you warts. However, there are many favorable depictions of frogs in fiction.

This isn't a character trope — one evil reptile character, species, or organization does not this trope make. Reptiles Are Abhorrent appears only as a pattern in which reptiles and reptile-themed characters, or specific types of reptiles (such as snakes), are almost always villainous. If several reptile characters are heroic instead, and there's no pattern to which are which, then this trope doesn't apply.

Reptiles Are Abhorrent is fairly consistent, but it's far from omnipresent, so do not list aversions. Do not list subversions unless they actually invoke this trope. Compare with Heroically Aligned Reptile. This is also closely related to Species-Coded for Your Convenience.

No Real Life Examples Please!

edited 2nd Apr '12 7:25:32 PM by ArcadesSabboth

This doesn't need to be "Every single snake is evil". Between My Species Doth Protest Too Much (most of the snakes are evil, but a few go against it), and franchise with a ton of different races (and often as not many different writers) you can still have stories invoke this by having the bulk of snakes be bad, but there be a few nice ones. Or maybe the cobras are evil but the garden snakes are nice.

Also, if you only have one evil snake in the entire work, it is still this trope. I'm thinking the Disney version of Jungle Book. There is only one snake, and there are also mammalian villains, but it is still very much invoking the trope by having the snake be a bad guy.

edited 2nd Apr '12 7:27:24 PM by Catbert

Should it say "usually" or "mostly" instead of "almost always" ?

I don't think the hypothetical garter snakes and cobras example would count, however.

edited 2nd Apr '12 7:26:38 PM by ArcadesSabboth

There is a danger in insisting on too much purity and consistency in a trope like this.

Harry Potter invokes the trope by having a Big Bad with a snake theme. Even though there are heroic Slytherins, it still used this trope.

Lord Of The Rings invokes Dark Is Evil is its depiction of Sauron. Even though there are good guys that use black as part of their heraldry, it still uses the trope.

I know, but I'm trying to strike a balance between making it too black-and-white and leaving it so ambiguous that the misuse comes back. There needs to be some note that one solitary reptile bad guy is not a trope.

How about:

"This isn't a character trope — one evil reptile character, species, or organization does not this trope make. Reptiles Are Abhorrent appears only as a pattern in which the bad reptile-theme villains noticeably outnumber the good ones — or are noticeably more reptilian. If reptiles are often associated with heroes as well as villains, and there's no pattern to which are which, then this trope doesn't apply."

edited 2nd Apr '12 7:46:01 PM by ArcadesSabboth