Violence

Maybe it's just a couple memorable things that stick out, but it seems like a lot of troper works are pretty violent. I sort of feel compelled to ask "why?" Maybe in context they really are horrifying or otherwise effective, but when described they usually sound kinda silly. It's my opinion that shock value things should be used sparingly, and over-the-top and cartoony violence will make me take a work less seriously. Although I suppose "over-the-top" is a relative standard; people exploding wouldn't be over-the-top in a story set in the trenches, but it would look very out of place elsewhere.

So, uh. What's your standard for "over-the-top"? If you include lots of violence, why?

edited 21st Nov '11 5:31:08 PM by Merlo

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...

... What counts as "violence" here? Is it merely brutal maiming or does it include general destruction and mayhem?

Not that it really matters for me...

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

I feel that violence is better alluded to than described. Some of my favorite works feature extremely brutal violence, and yes, they use it for shock value on some level, but it is usually with the intent to examine what humans are capable of rather than to make some retarded statement about how brave and stoic the hero is.

"Is it merely brutal maiming"

No, the agonizing loss of appendages in unusual settings doesn't quite qualify as violence. PUSSY!

edited 21st Nov '11 5:52:46 PM by kashchei

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

That said, I'm using it as a sort of sliding scale in the OP. Like I said I don't know if it's that I remember the extremely violent things more, but I feel like I've seen more instances on the extreme end of the scale.

I'm not sure what it means that you consider it possible for "brutal maiming" not to count as violence...

Ninja'd.

edited 21st Nov '11 5:57:31 PM by Merlo

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...

I do think we have writers here who deliberately try to be darker than the average work, not always to the better. [Redacted] There are also writers who may be using their story as a release for negative emotions, both their own and the readers'. [Redacted] Then there are writers for whom action comes first, and gore seems to be simply a side effect. [Redacted] Finally, there are writers who're simply basing their stuff off of existing violent works. (My inspirations have included Mother Of Tears, violent Rule 34 of Heroes, and some particularly dark content in the DC Universe.)

Edit: Decided I shouldn't talk about other people's stories.

edited 21st Nov '11 6:12:29 PM by feotakahari

That's Feo . . . He's a disgusting, mysoginistic, paedophilic asshat who moonlights as a shitty writer—Something Awful

A lot of young tropers have a preoccupation with violence - the kind of self-asserting act where one guy exerts force over another, blood spills, some gore, and it's a fantasy to incorporate into writing when the media you see have it in spades. Like Quentin Tarantino's, Scorsese's movies (and their derivatives), and in anime like Baccano, Kara No Kyoukai, Elfen Lied. It's visual, and it's quite visceral. Perhaps that we like playing shooter games comes to mind.

When I was younger, I once thought it was also cool to incorporate that kind of stuff into writing. But a crass sense comes into this, as you begin wondering of the character who suffers. Even outside fiction, if something violent were to occur, people would prefer staring - like observers watching TV - because they feel this detachment from the action. Hypontised, perhaps.

Maybe this leads to the suggestion that violence is a cool thing to have, if a given opportunity occurs. A left-over from our days as primates.

Then for me one cold day, the horrid realisation you're sponsoring a blood sport in this manner; in the Book of Job, where God and Satan decide for their own amusement to torture this guy Job, killing his family, racking him with boils, and various other divine amusements. (It's supposed to be a test of faith.) 'Like flies to wanton schoolboys are we to the gods; They kill us for their sport.' That's us.

Violence really isn't some cool-ass act to imitate; we so frown at news reports about idiot men murdering another like it's nothing, and yet we may even let out a chuckle as Vincent and Jules blowing away the people in an apartment - with lines like "Oh I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?" and "In the name of the Lord, I shall lay my vengeance upon thee—!" to glamorise it.

Real violence is people reducing others to a lower existence. Not Tarantino-glam, not to some ironic background tune of Angelic choirs, just ugly. It's a rarity to actually depict this Real in fiction, because the reader/viewer can easily numb out to what's happened. (But why should we have to feel bad about that? It's supposed to be entertainment.)

I suppose if these young, desensitized tropers would rent Funny Games, and give it a watch-through - maybe they would come to the same realisation I had, and reconsider what they're doing in their writing. (It's quite an unnerving trend if you're pondering it.)

edited 21st Nov '11 6:18:48 PM by QQQQQ

Well, my main heroine has currently destroyed one-hundred-ninety-nine and a half planets, sixty-four solar systems, thirty galaxies, and almost sixteen entire universes (note that these are all separate infractions). And by the story's end, the hero is set up to Mercy Kill little old planet Earth and everyone on it.

It's that kind of setting, yeah.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

While I am reluctant to inflict gory violence onto my human character (in Manifestation Files, it never really reaches that point), I have a little fun on the Manifestations, which are spirits. For instance, one spirit explodes, splattering all of its spirit goo on the narrator, making him quite numb.

I find it amazing the type of measure violence against humans and violence against animals/aliens/robots is different. While hurting humans can be icky and gross, non-humans...It's just a thought.

...There's really one violent scene I'm looking forward to writing, which is the one involving the Humanshifter extracting revenge on a serial murderer by stabbing him multiple times—while the Shapeshifting power is going haywire. Interplay of Sex and Violence implications are included.

edited 21st Nov '11 6:53:27 PM by chihuahua0

@ Q: Interesting points.

@ KSPAM: I have to ask... what is the point of all that?

@ Chi: Well, human existence is founded on violence done to non-humans, I think most have conditioned themselves to be ok with it... but I don't know if you want to get into the morality of that in this thread.

Would merely alluding to violence than describing it lessen the "brutality"?

I think at some point even that gets silly, though. "Humans are bastards! Now watch this guy torture 100 five-year-olds while shooting their moms in the face." We got the point after the first toddler.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...

No, it has nothing to do with some generic psychopath torturing children. Check out The God Of Small Things or Waiting For The Barbarians, for starters. As for your first question, it doesn't make it less brutal. It isn't meant to. It's meant to highlight the brutality as something that we shouldn't see as commonplace.

And better than thy stroke; why swellest thou then?

People tend to think that violence adds more edge and darkness, perhaps even depth. They might not say it out loud , but will have a hidden desire of seeking novelty. This is truth in television from the ancient times.

The 5th movie of Kara No Kyokai scared my crap out...

╮(╯_╰)╭

Thread Hop

Well, most troper works are amateur so narm is in the territory.

Mmmmm...Kara No Kyoukai is the most deliciously violent series EVER.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

A part where authors show violence effectively, is that it has become mundane in the story as smoking is in France, and that it doesn't linger as if to say highlightedly, "Look! That's bloodshed!" You think of favelas near Rio de Janiero and South Central LA, young punk kids robbing a store and beating the owner - and the gang wars that keep people awake at night, pow! Pow pow. Want to fuck with me? Choose either your foot or your hand.

The tragic thing is most of them don't know what it's like to live peaceful lives, none of this nonsense happening.

@dRoy: Kara No Kyoukai is a fucking cartoon.

edited 21st Nov '11 7:32:04 PM by QQQQQ

Yeeeeeuuuuuup. Very colorfully bloody cartoon, that is.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

@dRoy: M-M-M-MAXIMUM BROFIST!

@Merlo: Believe it or not, the work's primary theme is one of letting go and enjoying the time we have to live. I just thought the best way to go about this would be with a somewhat Lovecraftian "The universe and everyone in it is totally fucked, so you might as well live while you can" methodology. To be fair to said heroine, all those places kinda got the shit corrupted out of them, so really all of that was more of a Mercy Kill, as is her job.

Don't be hating >:|

Besides, the word "cartoon" to most people implies shallow minded entertainment for children. As Kara No Kyoukai is neither shallow nor for children, I must disagree on your stance that it is a "fucking cartoon".

edited 21st Nov '11 7:47:51 PM by KSPAM

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

@KSPAM-

-brofists back-

To be fair, there was the beginning of the third movie, so...

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

I will, but I won't be able to in the next couple weeks.

What I meant to say was some people use "Humans Are Bastards" as a justification for extreme violence but handle it poorly.

Still, that doesn't make it any less of a valid justification when done well.

Oh, I think I see what you mean now. People are less likely to become desensitized if they aren't frequently exposed to violence...?

But on the other hand I think the other extreme (no knowledge of violence at all) is also harmful. People are more likely to brush off war as not being that bad if they don't have an idea of what it's like to actually be a soldier.

So, if I had to pick a position, as of this posting: Realistic violence can be appropriate; use fantasy, glorified violence with lots of caution.

ed: I realize now this may not have been what you meant. Sorry if I keep misinterpreting what you mean, kash.

But Hmm Okay.

edited 21st Nov '11 7:48:01 PM by Merlo

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am...

@dRoy: Dohohohoho, I see wut u did thar.

@Merlo: My explanation is up, I hope it is satisfactory.

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

To be honest, I've often wondered this myself. I've never really been fond of the "things blowing up is cool" mentality, and as for the mentality that dark-n-edgy stuff makes a work better, it's difficult to express my opinion of that while still following my personal prohibition on obscene language.

Are my works violent? Depends on your definition, but overall, yes. Are they over-the-top violent like a number of tropers' works seem to be? No.

This work I mentioned is over-the-top violent, but again for good reason. Namely that it focuses on what essentially amounts to the multiverse's cleanup crew. When you're dealing with people to whom detonating universes is just a part of the job, over-the-topness is bound to happen. That and most of them are about as stable as a house of cards in a wind tunnel...

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

Kara No Kyoukai, in its way of showing violence (being psychologically distant from us), is a cartoon. (Doesn't mean I dislike the series.) A similar cartoon is Kill Bill where the Bride slices through men like they're Japanese-brand blood-packets, and Pulp Fiction from what I've mentioned above. Cathartic, in a "Whoa! Wow!" way, but there's little consequence (if any), asides the body hitting the floor and a few strings for the heroes on the receiving end.

Contrast this with a film like Irreversible, which shows how violence really is in real life. Destructive. A Clockwork Orange also takes this on its head as we see a delinquent teen assault those he encounters ("Just singing in the rain!"), only to be turned a vegetable by conditioning, and assaulted back from his victims afterwards.

edited 21st Nov '11 7:57:19 PM by QQQQQ

@Q True. I would be really horrified to see all those violent stuff in KNK in live action.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

@dRoy: Well, the bridge scene or Touko's briefcase would be pretty cool, but yeah, meeting someone like Shiki or Fujino in real life would be utterly horrifying.

@5Q: ... I think I get the point you're making about violence, but I apparently transferred off your train of thought around the time you said two live-action movies were cartoons. Would you mind explaining this logic to me Q?

edited 21st Nov '11 7:59:45 PM by KSPAM

I've got new mythological machinery, and very handsome supernatural scenery. Goodfae: a mafia web serial

@KSPAM-I think what Q was saying is that in those movies, the violence is shown in very stylish manner so it lacks the sense of realism. I think.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Basically, what he's saying (and I've definitely heard this idea before) is that they are cartoonish in the way in which the violence does not have any real impact and is played for Rule of Cool.

Also, I'd like to go ahead and note that violence in my comics, while again neither over-the-top nor "edgy", does definitely have a similar lack of impact. However, in my defense, my medium and its corresponding Bloodless Carnage, and the overall lighthearted tone, in many ways leave me no choice in that matter. My written works take things more seriously.

Ninja'd by d Roy.

edited 21st Nov '11 8:02:00 PM by nrjxll