Marvel Cinematic Universe

I didn't exactly say he kills vaguely criminal people. Moreso that he kills anyone he judges as vaguely criminal and that's pretty much a fact of the character. Punisher ultimately only spares people if he wants to, and most of the time he just shoots to kill anyone vaguely associated with a criminal outfit unless he finds a need in them.

This "Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon" logic of the character is brought to new heights in Punisher: The End. In that he, literally, dooms mankind to extinction so he can punish the guilty.

There are softer and there are harsher versions of the character depending on the writer, but for the most part I think Ennis's version of the character, which is the most outright ruthless, has solidly established the Punisher as a "take-no-prisoners" guy with few exceptions.

Ultimately, I don't find Punisher at all that removed from our reality. It's been pointed out before that he's generally written as a operating in a much more down-to-earth corner of reality than usual marvel comics. I think the dangerous thing is, while he's not exactly a real life case, he's close enough to our reality to have some dangerous aesops working in it.

If the Punisher was a straight fantasy, you'd have John Wick. As it is, Punisher resembles more Death Wish.

edited 21st Sep '17 11:59:14 AM by Gaon

When I say fantasy I mean less so that he does impossible feats and moreso that he magically only ever kills people who deserve it and is portrayed as being correct and impartial. I think that's why Joss Whedon said he hates the character; the idea that a mass murderer only ever manages to conveniently kill bad people who 100 percent deserved it is something that's ludicrous, even by the standards of a comic book.

Like someone else said, even if you ignore that invariably he'd be killing people who haven't done anything particularly bad (Mark Millar of all people pointed this out in The Ultimates when he had Fury mention that Frank has killed people like drivers or other low level employees whose only crimes were working for a guy Frank decided to kill), people don't just fire thousands of rounds of ammunition in real life that magically avoid hitting unintended targets.

Ennis himself tried to deconstruct this a bit with a group of copycat vigilantes in his run. One of them is a flat out white supremacist who kills black people and hispanic people because he hates them (which is something we've seen happen with real world vigilantes like Bernie Goetz), one of them is dangerously insane, and one of them gets innocent people killed in the crossfire. They're all deliberately representative of the realities that would come with someone like the Punisher in real life.

edited 21st Sep '17 12:13:03 PM by comicwriter

Oh yeah, on that count I agree entirely with you.

Inhumans Cancelled – No Season 2 Already? ABC Promotes ‘Complete Series’

http://renewcanceltv.com/inhumans-cancelled-no-season-2-already-abc-promotes-complete-series/

If it was ever intended for this to have multiple seasons, then good riddance.

edited 21st Sep '17 12:22:34 PM by VeryMelon

I thought it was just meant to be a miniseries?

This is pretty rich coming from Whedon given the type of crap he's had his characters get away with.

And after the comics claimed the Hulk had never killed anyone in any of his rampages I have a lot of difficulty seeing the Punisher being able to avoid casualties as so absurd.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Hulk's rampages never killing anyone is just as bullshit as Punisher's magic bullets.

The Hulk never asks you to buy into the idea that he's a realistic, mature story for adults that provides a thoughtful analysis of real world issues. Punisher books, depending on the writer, do. Hence my initial claim. You can have a fun escapist Punisher book where he magically kills only bad guys without a single morally-suspect belief in his heart while the audience cheers "Fuck yeah!" or you can have a realistic, adult take on the premise. You're not gonna get both.

Probably the closest there's been to a realistic take on that was the original Death Wish, and even then all the sequels morphed into cartoons.

The TV show looks to be skirting around the issue by having the bad guys be part of some corrupt military cover-up, which removes some of the ambiguity depending on how it's handled.

edited 21st Sep '17 12:56:16 PM by comicwriter

I've read plenty of Hulk stories to tell me otherwise. Marvel's been selling themselves as the superhero universe that is all about "real world issues" since the Fantastic Four.

Even if it was, there was always the potential for a second season if it was successful. Agent Carter was also advertised as a miniseries and ended up getting a season 2 anyways.

The fact that they are specifically advertising it as "see the complete series" could indicate that Marvel has little confidence in it getting a season 2, but ultimately we won't know for sure until it actually airs.

A quick google search tells me there's never been any Hulk book in the vein of Marvel Max, so nah. I'm gonna stand by my statement.

I'm also not entirely sure what it is you're arguing, other than to just argue, tbh.

Stop hiring Scott Buck.

edited 21st Sep '17 1:49:43 PM by comicwriter

You do know that there is an entire range of serious works beyond Marvel Max right?

I don't even know how to respond to this.

edited 21st Sep '17 2:16:48 PM by windleopard

People in the real world have the capacity to shoot somone on the basis of thinking that they are "criminal". And have done so. And have killed innocent children. There is a serious problem with both cops and civilians killing people who "look criminal" to them, especially because there are major racial aspects to who they decide "looks criminal". I find the concept of the Punisher as antihero really freaking disturbing for that reason.

People in the real world do not have the capacity to turn into the Hulk, so Hulk comics have lower requirements for versimilitude.

And when I can find one that purports to "realistically" examine the Hulk in the manner works like MAX similar do the Punisher, I'll let you know. As it stands, they're two points that aren't comparable. One's an inherently fantastic concept and one is something that does happen in the real world (often tragically), hence the inherent inability to offer an honest deconstruction.

I agree with comicwriter than an Indecisive Deconstruction is the worse idea for the Netflix show. Pick a single path and stick with it, show.

And just to be clear, I have no idea what route the show is going. Hopefully they avoid those pitfalls.

edited 21st Sep '17 3:54:12 PM by comicwriter

Iron Fist, episode five!

What the hell am I watching? This has to be, like, a really shitty commercial for the new Rand drug, right? Hilariously oversexualized women trying to hawk vials of medication? That's what this is?

"The value of this particular heroin is unprecedented." …oh my god, we are supposed to be taking this seriously? This isn't, like, being played up to make fun of advertising trends? This is a drug deal? In office buildings for some reason? I am so confused right now, you guys.

"Why not let an expert be the judge?" The junkie guy looks like Danny with a shitty goatee. At least, I think he does. Man, I can't tell. All white people look the same!

"This is ridiculous." It absolutely is, but I'm still waiting for the punchline. There has to be one. Marvel's pretty tone-deaf, but even I have trouble seeing them play this hypersexualized sales pitch completely straight. There's got to be a play here.

"How much can I order?" Any minute now. Aaaaaany minute—and we're at the opening theme. F*ck. So that really was just pointless objectification for its own sake, wasn't it? Goddammit, Marvel.

"Whoever the Einstein behind this is made sure there's no limit to how much one can make." I'm going to assume this Surprise Heroin plot is meant to tie Gao's weird spontaneous membership in The Hand into her original heroin role from DareDevil. Man, I know I made a drug ninjas crack in the last episode but now I really want that to be a thing. C'mon, Coke Bombs.

Also, I'm not sure why Danny is suddenly aware of this drug. Did one of the pointlessly sexualized marketers bring him a sample?

"I'm going to deal with this." Why? Nothing about your character to this point has suggested a general desire to fight crime. In what way is heroin Danny's business? It's not connected to Rand, his past, or The Hand. I mean, it probably is connected to The Hand but he doesn't know that.

This is not a man who has ever prowled the streets of the city at night, looking for evildoers to smite. Why does he suddenly care about heroin deals going on? Who is bringing him intel on heroin deals to care about? Did I miss something? I feel like he got his company back and then between episodes Marvel just wants to be like, "And then suddenly he's a superhero because f*ck you, that's why."

"It's being shipped in through the new Rand pier, Ward." There we go. There's the connection. He's investigating the pier because Harold asked him to and that's how he came upon this heroin. Okay. I am onboard with this now.

"Is that heroin? You bring drugs into my office?!" I love how Ward calmly got up and closed the door before flipping out about this. That's so business. It's great.

"This was inside. It's a message." Okay, and that clears up how he got the sample. If this was in the box last episode, I probably just missed it. Totally onboard now.

"Look at the symbol on the back." "A snake?" Oh, that! I didn't miss it, I just thought it was a piece of paper.

"The Hand is using our company to smuggle synthetic heroin into the city. We need to stop it." Now, the correct response is to call the police, but Danny has such a contemptuous relationship with law that I totally understand why his first instinct here is to handle it in-house.

"That's between the two of you. I have real business in the real world to deal with." Ward fails to see a way by which Danny's plan will allow him to bathe in the screams of the innocent, so it fails the "What's in it for me?" test. Sorry, Danny. Try all you want, he'll never love you. You're just not evil enough.

"Hey!" Wow, Ward seriously put the heroin in his desk after Danny forgot it. That's dangerous. I mean, it's not really that dangerous because we've already established that this stuff isn't even illegal. Which honestly calls into question whether this is even really that heinous, come to think of it. Huh.

The Hand's synthetic heroin gets you super-high off a single dose while preventing your body from developing a tolerance to it, which means the rate of overdose is basically going to be never. You won't have junkies needing to feed more and more into their systems to feel anything. They can just take one dose and be set every time. That's so good, it might even coax people off of more dangerous drugs like actual heroin, meth, alcohol, etc.

And it doesn't even contain anything that would make it illegal to distribute, which calls into question how harmful it is to the body. This shit could cripple the drug cartels overnight. F*ck, Danny, instead of trying to shut it down, why don't you take it to a lab and investigate potential harmful effects of using it? If The Hand's magic heroin can pass FDA approval, f*cking market that shit. Let's get some factories mass-producing it as a clean alternative to narcotics.

Do you know how much good a drug like this could do?! Until we see some harmful effects, I'm leaning in favor of the magic heroin. Madame Gao just solved America's substance abuse problem.

Danny idly folding a sticky note into an origami flower while chatting with the assistant lady was a nice touch of characterization.

"Are we on the right side of this?" Probably not, but that's because Ward makes it his business to never be on the right side of anything. He actually put a cardboard partition up on his bed to make sure he always wakes up on the left side every morning.

"I wish it was my fault. It sounds ludicrous, but then there'd be something I could do to help them." I wish you had more agency within the boundaries of this plot. So far, Joy's been largely defined by how others are motivated by her to act. She's been a motivation for Ward, for Harold, and for Danny. The three men in her life, all of whom have their own agency, while the most she's contributed of her own volition was giving Danny a bowl after being repeatedly stalked.

Honestly, between Joy, Colleen, and now those needlessly sexualized marketing ladies, I don't think this show likes women very much. But later episodes could still prove me wrong. There's plenty of time for Colleen's and Joy's depictions to improve.

Oh, hey, Claire's arrived. Welcome to the show, Claire. She's hit-or-miss for me generally, but her presence feels like a breath of fresh air nonetheless.

"Hi, Danny. Need something?" I'm still not clear on why Danny and Colleen are suddenly on casual drop-by privileges. Bugs the crap out of me.

"It'll have to wait 'til I'm done." "Oh, but I ordered takeout." She's with a student, Danny. F*cking hell. If you can't respect her as a person, at least respect her business as a dojo. Danny just expects her to drop what she's doing and come to him when he calls.

"How do you two know each other?" Persistent, borderline obsessive stalking. You know how it goes. You've met Jessica.

"What the hell is going on?" "I told you. I ordered takeout." …okay, this isn't takeout. Danny just intruded into her home with a romantic dinner without so much as asking her first. Jesus Christ, Danny, every time I think you can't get sleazier.

"Is this a date?!" "What? No! No. …unless you want it to be." So. F*cking. Creepy. Danny Rand's complete disregard for basic consent is starting to approach Kilgrave levels here. I'm sure they aren't going to go so far as to actually have Danny rape Colleen - in fact, they probably don't even realize anything's wrong with this behavior - but this is rapist behavior.

"You know, I'd be thrilled to spend the rest of my session joining the two of you." Forget what I said about hit or miss. Anything Claire has ever done to earn my ire is immediately forgiven. Thank you so much for third wheeling this creepy-ass display of forcible affection-pleading, Claire. You are the hero this series deserves.

"Oh, you see, that's—" "A great idea!" I love that Danny tries to politely tell her to leave so he can get his mack on but Colleen's all, "Nope, a third wheel is just what we need to keep this nice and friendly."

I'm actually not sure now about what I said regarding the writers not recognizing how creepy this is, because this response from Claire and Colleen is a classic defense mechanism against displays like Danny's. Through conversational cues and observations, she's picked up that Danny is acting as a potential sexual predator, and by inserting herself into the situation, she's creating a passive defense to protect Colleen.

This kind of predation tends only to come out when the predator is alone with his intended target. Simply by remaining with her until Danny leaves, Claire greatly minimizes the risk to Colleen. That Colleen so quickly goes along with it communicates that she, too, recognizes that Danny is a potential sexual predator and that she needs to be very careful in her dealings with him.

The only person who doesn't think Danny might actually try to rape Colleen right now is Danny. But he's biased.

"We'll win this in court." "A case like this could take years." A lot of cases involving major industries take years. The court is not fast.

"I just want to make sure your emotions aren't clouding the fact that this was clearly a setup." We'll file that neatly under "Things that are frequently said to businesswomen but would never be said to a man in the same position." I'm not going to complain, though, because it's coming out of Ward's mouth. This is a man so evil that rumor has it Infinity War will contain a scene of Thanos popping by the tower to go, "Dude, you're f*cked up. Get some help."

Huh. A pill bottle. That's a completely different medication Ward has from his Chronic Backstabbing Disorder stuff.

"Do what Joy says." I love how Ward just starts flipping off random things in his office trying to figure out which one has the camera. Ward, buddy, it's probably a wiretap. Harold doesn't need a camera to keep tabs on you. Also, this doesn't count as Joy winning this because Harold had to win it for her. She made her opinion known and then one of the men in her life overruled another of the men in her life in response to it.

I love Claire's interrogation of Danny. She's being polite and civil about it, but she's pumping him for personal details in order to analyze how much of a risk he poses to Colleen. Asking about his history, making veiled probes into his mental state, etc.

This dinner is super tense under the pretense of civility and it is a fantastic scene because of it.

I really hope this goes somewhere, because there is so much information to absorb about Danny for her. He is physically threatening due to his martial arts training comprising the bulk of his past. He's pushy, as evidenced by this forced date. He has a strict sense of self-righteousness, based on his remarks about avoiding "indulgences", making him unlikely to be personally reflective on his own behavior. Also, he looked right at Colleen when he said "romantic entanglements". Claire's Rapist Alarm should be blaring a red alert right now; Danny is extremely dangerous.

"You took a vow of chastity?" "…yeah. Heh. Of course." Danny's hesitation and his little laugh there do not suggest an honest answer, so he's also lying about being celibate. That's a huge Red Flag right there.

"So you said you wanted to talk about something." "…oh, yeah." And he had to be reminded of his pretense for coming here, which is another Red Flag.

"I would love to stick around and hear more but I've got to get going." Wait, what?! Claire, where are you going?! This is totally a violation of the Girl Code. You are abandoning Colleen in the hands of a High Risk Potential Rapist! What the hell?!

"You don't have to go." HINT BLOODY HINT, CLAIRE.

"You're joking. You want me to come with you?" Seriously, he is so intrusive. She doesn't want to be your lover, she doesn't want to be your sidekick, she doesn't want anything to do with you. Go away.

"It'll be on your streets and everything you've done for them will have been for nothing." He is seriously guilt-tripping her into coming with him to commit violent crimes together. F*cking hell, Danny is never a shittier character than when he's around Colleen.

"If it helps, you can forget about rent this month." "I already said no." "I bought your building." OH MY GOD, the Creep Train never ends. He has now positioned himself into a place of financial authority over her and is using their fiduciary relationship to blackmail her into working for him. This is sick. This is actually Kilgrave-level sick.

I love how horrified Colleen looks right before tactly saying, "I want the leak under my sink fixed." She is so creeped out right now, and Danny just nods to himself like, "Yeah, I nailed that." F*cking creep. I said it before, but Danny is a horrible protagonist and I want Jessica to break his nose in Defenders.

The rest of this episode so far has been pretty good, but this scene made my feel physically ill. I hate that we're supposed to root for this creepy predator of a character.

"Awesome." And now Danny's going through Colleen's possessions. Because of course he is.

Ugh. And now they're bonding over martial arts, which I just can't even pretend to enjoy because of how creepy he's been up to this point including this very episode. The writers keep trying to sneak in these moments of, "Aww, she really does like him, she's just being Tsundere!" inbetween bits of Danny being a f*cking pushy stalker. Hollywood's got a lot of creepy, pushy romances in its many films and shows to date, but this one's definitely up there. Colleen shouldn't be smiling and laughing with him, she should be filing a restraining order.

"The company's been calling." "We doing this or what?" "Lead the way." He's been at Rand like two days and he's already DareDevil Season Two'ing his job. If there was ever any doubt The Hand really is here….

"Does it bother you?" "What?" "That everyone knows me now." …why the f*ck would that bother her? Is he asking if she's jealous? Danny just shut the f*ck up. Please.

"You can go home if you want. Eat the rest of the takeout. Wait for the repairman to fix your kitchen sink. Fight strangers in cages." Seriously, Danny, shut the f*ck up. You sound like a villain right now. An actual villain. This is the kind of speech a villain gives to tempt a person into giving into a life of evil by disdaining normal life.

"It feels good winning." "What felt good was hurting those guys." What the hell am I watching? Seriously, this is some Start of Darkness shit. Colleen and her stalker are bonding over the way Evil Feels Good and that's super f*cked up.

"It's just nice having someone to count on." "You have the Meachums. Joy." "Do you have someone?" Don't. Do not. No. Nope. Nope nope nope nope nope. This is by far the worst romance in the history of the MCU, including that time Captain America macked on his ex's niece. This is a horror.

"…let's just get this over with." Oh, thank god, her tsuntsun took over. I was seriously afraid for a moment that Danny and Colleen were going to kiss.

"I'm sorry if I misread your intentions with the takeout." You didn't. Jesus, they're seriously having her apologize to him for being creeped out by his behavior? God, this scene can't end soon enough.

"Why would they need guns unless they have something to hide?" Because this is the United States.

Wow, that guard was terrible at his job. Colleen ran full sprint at him from the front, he clearly saw her, and instead of drawing his gun and firing on the charging trespasser, he put his hand on his gun and then sprinted forward to take her kick. That was terrible choreography.

Wow, really? Danny evaded three bullets from less than ten feet away by crouching behind a table? Not even a flipped table, mind you. Just a table. You could easily shoot under it or just nail his head peeking out over it. Three bullets. That's worse than Greedo.

"Why are you doing this to yourself, Ward?" "I'm doing it to him." It's a sensible logic train. Harold cares about Ward and Ward is powered entirely by malice, so in order to spite Harold, he's sticking it to Ward. It makes perfect sense, from a beacon of pure evil standpoint.

"Here. Whatever it takes." How does Danny have a credit card? It takes about two weeks for those to arrive in the mail.

"I was hoping he could stay here." "I have lessons here." "We can move him into your bedroom!" Danny continues to just assume ownership of Colleen's dojo, made all the more creepy by the fact that he actually financially owns it now.

"They have my daughter." Of course they do. He's white, so clearly he's got a sympathetic motive for working with the magic ninjas.

"Sabina is all that matters." "Then I'll find her." How?

"This is the one thing I can do better than anyone else." I actually agree with that. Danny is a terrible human being, he's an awful businessman, but he's good at punching. He could be useful dumb muscle if he could just stop being so domineering and trying to control everyone around him.

"He's not alone." "Hey, I can't ask anything more from you." Really. We're really doing this. Like ten minutes ago he was demeaning her lifestyle because she didn't want to be the person bringing a katana to an assault rifle fight. Suddenly he's the voice of reason? F*ck you, episode.

Like, earlier in this scene he was volunteering her home to be the place where they shelter the dying guy. Go die in a fire with that "can't ask anything more from you" nonsense. You were asking more from her right then!

"He punched through solid metal with his bare hands." You were unconscious in the back. You have no way of knowing that.

"Kneel." And once again, a dude just sorta accepts his own murder without an ounce of resistance. I will never understand that.

So, this episode started out promising, but then took a sharp left turn into belligerently obnoxious. This one was bad. I keep praying that the Danny/Colleen subplot isn't actually going anywhere but they keep Ship Teasing it and it's so f*cking creepy every time they do. I cannot get behing this ship. Absolutely cannot. I stand by what I said, this is Kilgrave-level creepy. Danny's persistent aggressive violation of her home, her consent, and her way of life is horrifying.

This subplot is so bad that it's actively ruining the show. I want to care about Ward taking the heroin. I want to care about Gao's operation developing. I want to care about what's happening to Harold. There are so many things I want to care about right now but I can't because oh my god, did you see that shit Danny pulled on Colleen this episode?! Jesus f*cking Christ, he needs to go to prison for the way he acts towards her. I cannot even begin to imagine how the writers could possibly think this borderline rapist activity is acceptable protagonist behavior.

This isn't flawed. Let's be clear. Danny is a bad person. He is a Villain Protagonist at this point. That is how unacceptable his behavior towards Colleen is. This is not "He's socially awkward and doesn't know how to communicate." This is "He's going to rape you and not even realize he did anything wrong."

I want Colleen to be Put on a Bus because I know Danny isn't going anywhere. It's his show, unfortunately, But every time he's around her, he stops being even remotely sympathetic and becomes a dangerous sexual predator. This needs to stop.

...I really like their scenes.

I even thought the "take-out" thing was funny because I do think it's genuinely supposed to be Danny's idea of take-out. Because he was a pampered rich kid who then immediately went from Riches to Rags, he has no frame of reference.

Killgrave-level creepiness, you say? Isn't Danny Rand going to be on the same show as Jessica Jones? 'Cause I'm suddenly seeing an awesome subplot, but it probably won't happen.

Calling him a Villain Protagonist might have been an overreaction. I'm just so creeped out by him with regards to Colleen, and this episode did not help. "Hi, I decided you're cancelling your class to have a candlelit dinner with me in your home, which I have purchased so that I can use your rent to make you do things I want. Please kindly exit the building, student of Colleen's, so that me and my property may enjoy the date that we will be having with or without her consent."

I'm sure by next episode I'll have had enough time to recover and just be annoyed by him instead of so creeped out that I want him to go to prison, but right now I think I actually need to take a shower because of how rapey his behavior is.

edited 21st Sep '17 7:22:26 PM by TobiasDrake

Okay, dude, come on.

That is seriously what happened. He tried to kick Claire out in the middle of Colleen's class so that she'd be free to have dinner with him, even though she never agreed to have said dinner in the first place. He used her financial troubles and the fact of his ownership of her building to blackmail her into coming on the pier mission.

Danny doesn't ask for things. He tells Colleen about the things he's already volunteered her for. Even when he does give her the pretense of a choice, he manipulates her and coerces her into accepting his decisions.

This is predatory behavior.

edited 21st Sep '17 7:26:17 PM by TobiasDrake

So...how many episodes are left?

I don't really grasp how you conceived his behavior as so disturbing. I mean, they might as well have been, but that completely slipped me by.

To me it seemed very clear Danny, as a man who grew up in a monastery being taught nothing except kicking people in the face, has zero grasp of social relationships and below zero grasp of money. So him buying her building, for example, seems like a basic assumption on his part that Collen needs money to live in her building, and he has (as far as he's concerned) infinite money whilst she does not, so naturally he should eliminate her concerns about money.

This is an idea that keeps popping up regarding Danny's character, actually. That he has absolutely zero grasp of how money and economics work, both in practical and sociological terms. He keeps doing this (by which I mean things like "paying someone's rent for a year" or "buying an entire building") every time he feels like it'd help people. To his conception, buying Collen's building so she won't have to pay the rent is as a casual act of kindness as holding the door open for someone. The weight of the gesture at no point crosses his mind.

How creepy the act of buying her building is might not have crossed his mind, but I have trouble believing he didn't know exactly what he was doing when she told him she didn't want to go with him to the pier and he responded by going, "If you come with me, you won't have to pay me rent for a month."

As the owner of her building, he is literally holding her financial status over her head in order to coerce her into accepting something she was otherwise unwilling to agree to. That is a clear violation of consent.

He didn't buy the building to fix her money troubles. This is evident in the fact that he does expect her to pay him rent. So far, he's only used the fact of his ownership for evil.

edited 21st Sep '17 7:31:23 PM by TobiasDrake