Rename: Has Japanese Word in Title: Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere

Fast Eddie is on a tear renaming pages with a Japanese word in their title. Link to Discussion.

Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere. Fast Eddie has locked the page and deleted it. I am making this thread to get consensus. Once it has been gotten, I will PM a moderator and they'll help us do whatever the consensus is.

It's possible that a rename may not be necessary. Please read Everything You Wanted To Know About Changing Names. I feel the old title meets many of the criteria under "Reasons NOT to Rename." The one it doesn't meet is "If the name is a term already in use in the world, it is working." because I haven't seen the term Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere used outside of TV Tropes. I think it also meets the title guidelines of being clear, concise and witty.

• My opinion is keep the old name. Tsundere is a Tropes Of Legend. Most tropers will know what it is. Any English speaker will know what the other words means.
• This is my first time making a thread. Am I supposed to give my opinion in the first post?
• Consensus wasn't obtained prior to page deletion (if I'm wrong on this, please link to the discussion and/or crowner). Fast Eddie says the deletion was "perfectly reasonable." I say let's ask the tropers what is or isn't "perfectly reasonable."

There is a YKTTW for a new page with a different name here. Go there to see what the old page looked like.

Alternate titles suggested in that YKTTW:

Delete page and redo as subsection in Fountain of Expies (the rest of these examples are rename titles)

Shana Clone - Fast Eddie does not like (character named)

Shana Expy - Current name of YKTTW - Fast Eddie does not like (character named)

Flat Fearsome Femme - Fast Eddie suggested this one

Tiny Tempermental Love Interest

Diminuitive Dominatrix

Little Miss Maniac

Miniature Maniacal Missy

Tiny Tempermental Spitfire

I'm not happy that Fast Eddie deleted the page (allegedly without consensus). I have added "This Very Wiki" to the Status Quo Is God page in response to this event (Subverted Trope).

edited 29th Jul '11 1:04:46 PM by jcdietz03

If it was removed solely because of the name, then that's really uncool...I think there's a valid trope there, but I don't recall ever looking at the page to know who the examples were.

Tsundere personality is key to the trope without that it is just not the trope. It will invite misuse from anyone who is just short and mean (The Napoleon ) Also this is Anime only.

Also there are tons tropes relating to their super trope IE The Libby - Lovable Libby. (I would say there are like 100s)

edited 29th Jul '11 8:06:40 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I would like to add that this is a purely anime trope (more ranting on that in the YKTTW). So even though I think most tropers would understand what it means right off the bat, they don't need to. This is never going to show up outside of anime, and naming it something else just invites that kind of misuse.

Are exceptions made for Japan-only tropes though?

Anyway, I think if Tsundere is good enough then so is Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere.

"The Daily Show has to be right 100% of the time; FOX News only has to be right once." - Jon Stewart

Yeah, keep the old title. It's nice and descriptive and snappy and hey - it alliterates! That's gotta count for something.

Fast Eddie's problem with he japanese names, from what I gathered, was that the average troper wouldn't recognize or understand the japanese terminology without (gasp, shock, horror) reading the article. My opinions on that aside, if the trope isn't likely to see much mileage outside of the anime fandom anyway, I don't see why that needs to apply.

edited 29th Jul '11 8:17:32 AM by YamiiDenryuu

Also against a rename. Tsundere's one of the Tropes Of Legend (as stated by the OP), so I don't see any problem here.

The alternative name, Shana Expy, also has a problem as a character named trope. Not to mention that it sounds like a snowclone of Rei Expy and Char Clone.

MAL || vndb || Blog

If I may suggest a possible solution?

I think part of the problem is that you're starting from the assumption that the character type only occurs in Japanese works, and writing the whole description form that point of view. This means that even if there are western works that use it, they won't be suggested.

So you've built in a self-perpetuating cycle: The definition says it's Japanese only, so western examples won't be added even if they fit, so there won't be any evidence that it isn't Japanese only, so obviously it is and the definition is correct and we're back to the beginning.

Try writing the description without relying on Japanese terms; without defining it as "Like this Japanese character. Just tell us what the defining characteristics are. Reading the description, as a non-anime fan, (so "Shana expy" tells me only that it's a charater who is like somebody named "Shana", which tells me absolutely nothing), this is "a small girl who is overbearing and tyrannical, especially to her love interest, often taking it as far as violence". I see nothing that's exclusively Japanese in that.

edited 29th Jul '11 8:32:05 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

Mad, this is about an expy character. It has already been suggested that there needs to be a similar trope for tiny, domineering women, but this one is very specific trope about an anime expy of Shana from...that anime I can never remember the name of. Regardless, it's like Char Clone, just with a better title. It's more than just a few personality types. Look at the picture on the YKTTW, and you'll see.

Why does it have to be limited to being about an expy, if the character type exists outside of those epies? Why should we have two trope pages for the same thing, if the only difference is "Made after Shana got popular" and "Made before Shana got popular, or somewhere that isn't Japan"?

edited 29th Jul '11 8:34:26 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.

For the same reason other expy tropes exist. It's a copy of a specific character, to the point that we can assume its intentional. It's not just a small, bossy tsundere. It's a small, bossy tsundere with a grade S Zettai Ryouiki and blonde hair. Any time we see this, we can assume the author saw one of the other characters of this type and said "Wow, that's cool, I'm going to make a character exactly like that."

I think that's a worthwhile distinction, and we have other expy character types like this. If it's not a good distinction, then we need to look at the other expy tropes.

edited 29th Jul '11 8:38:16 AM by Discar

It's Fiery Red Head or Blonde that's one of the two variations this can have, the other being long straight hair (usually the blonde.) vs Twin Tails (usually the red head.)

(Negima actually uses both Eva long blonde and Anya red head Twin Tails, both fit very very well.)

As well as many of them are voiced by the same person... 100% separate works and when an anime is made they have to get Rie.

The reason for the name was because we wanted to avoid a character named trope, however not using Tsundere in the title will lead to misuse they are all Type A Tsundere and need that hidden niceness with their victim. (the YKTTW is missing all the work we put into the cut page sadly and missing more than a few examples...)

edited 29th Jul '11 9:05:44 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

I'm not sure the word itself is something that can't go without an English translation, considering the pages it shows up on. Or is that just miss use of legend?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Restore the trope as it was. The name is a good one.

Then you might as well call it "Shana Expy", not a name that implies a more general quality. Not that I approve of character named tropes, or even "Expy tropes" per se, but that's a different matter.

edited 29th Jul '11 9:36:26 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

From what I understand, the expies are built around a specific character being copied in many instances. I mean, how many Detectives are based around Sherlock Holmes?

Fight smart, not fair.

Well, we have the Private Detective trope, which is largely Inspired by… Holmes, but we give it a general name so it's as accessible as possible. I think that's kind of the point here. Just because a particular character inspires a rash of expies doesn't mean that it's a trope unto itself.

So I withdraw my earlier point about naming it after the character.

However, just because a character is the Trope Maker for a particular archetype does not mean that said archetype only exists in a particular medium.

edited 29th Jul '11 12:04:19 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I think we definitely need to figure out if individual...fountains should get their own pages, and move on from there. If they shouldn't, then there's no reason to limit this to anime (but I still think Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere is the perfect name).

Currently, we have a few expy character tropes, like Char Clone.

Shana Expy is fine. The name Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere sounds*

horrible. And is that even really alliteration when tsundere doesn't have a t sound in it?

Shana Expy is not fine. Character named tropes are not good.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

Shouldn't we do something about Char Clone then since I seem to recall a ton of the examples don't even fit? Or was that fixed?

That would be a matter for a different thread... and that trope practically defines How Not To Name A Trope.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Ok, fair enough. I still think Tiny Tyrannical Tsundere is an awful name. It's trying too hard and it fails at what it's trying.

Open to it being a non-anime trope. But I couldn't think of any matching examples. This is about a character type created in Japanese media and copied in Japanese media. It hasn't yet been copied outside of Japanese media. There's no reason it couldn't happen at some point - I just can't pin down any examples.

Trying really hard, I thought of Toph from Avatar The Last Airbender. Does she qualify as Tsundere. I think no, because there's no dere (sweet) side to her.

Tiny Tyrannical Girl was added as a YKTTW. For Tiny Tyrannical Girl, Tsundere is not a requirement. Examples from other works have already been listed under it. Link to YKTTW for TinyTyrannicalGirl. Toph qualifies as Tiny Tyrannical Girl. I think I will add it to the YKTTW.

I need to PM a mod to attach a single proposition crowner, because it seems like consensus has been reached. Check the link in the OP - the requirement is 65% and I think we have cleared it. Time to take a vote.

Here is the crowner: Link.

edited 29th Jul '11 2:04:19 PM by jcdietz03

Char Clone has been fixed, and is a pre-existing term.