Should this only apply to certain works and universes: Most Common Super Power

How about costumed hero or costumed villain? That covers the Batfamily, doesn't it?

But what about those Not Wearing Tights, I hear you say. Well...shut up.

Or, if you would rather go with lawyerspeak: "Those included within this trope have to be individuals whom either have/had superpowers and/or wore costumes in order to fight and/or commit crimes in a comic book or a setting reminiscient of a comic book."

edited 14th Mar '11 10:35:49 PM by alliterator

What's wrong with plain old superheroine/villainess? That automatically covers all of them, super powered, costumed, or not.

edited 14th Mar '11 10:38:14 PM by ccoa

Eh, some people will complain that "superheroine" implies a heroine with, you know, superpowers. Is Batgirl a superheroine?

I say yes, you say tomato.

According to wikipedia, the primary common trait is:

Thus, Batgirl is a superheroine.

edited 14th Mar '11 10:45:24 PM by ccoa

I don't see what would be so egregious about limiting this trope to comics superheriones (and villainess) or works from other mediums clearly inspired by comic book superheroes. I think the point this trope is getting at is that there a standard bodytype for comic book superheriones .

This trope doesn't work for anime and most other works in medium simply because their superheroes (in the none traditional sense) tend to have more varied body types.

We seem to have lost track of a couple of other things in this debate. So, for Negima and other anime examples: if an unbiased troper can tell me that an anime is clearly in the Western superhero genre regardless of country of animation, then it belongs. But this is an aside topic and really is completely unimportant in the long run whether an example of Negima appears on the page. So let's drop it for now, shall we?

Other issues at hand:

The definition of a superheroine/villainess.

How about this: we use the words superheroine and supervillainess on the page. We also include a hottip for each that spells out exactly what we mean by those words. For example, "By superheroine, we mean an individual with superhuman abilities (either through superpowers, magic, technology, and/or the Charles Atlas kind) who uses these abilities to fight crime and supervillains and who appears in the Western comic book genre. She will probably wear a costume, usually spandex, and have a secret identity." And, "By supervillainess, we mean an individual with superhuman abilities (either through superpowers, magic, technology, and/or the Charles Atlas kind) who uses these abilities to commit crimes and fight superheroes and who appears in the Western comic book genre. She will probably wear a costume, usually spandex."

Example composition.

It's been suggested that we limit examples to justifications, exceptions, and exaggerations. Because this trope is nigh-universal, these are the only examples that give us meaningful data. For example, Caitlin Fairchild of Gen13 is a justification, since having large breasts is literally a part of her superpower. Power Girl is an exaggeration (and mention the Urban Legend about that). Roxanne "Freefall" Spalding of Gen13 is an exception, being of modest size when compared to her teammates (Depending on the Artist, of course).

Merging with Heroic Build or redefine to be the female version of Heroic Build

This trope isn't really a unique subtrope. I cannot find a single example of Most Common Superpower that only includes large breasts. They all also have toned bodies, flat abs, large hips, nice butts, and long legs. It seems a bit odd to focus on that one single part of their anatomy for this trope. I think it would be better to either redefine Most Common Superpower to be about how female superheroes have nice bodies (and restrict Heroic Build to male bodies) or else merge them.

Did I miss anything at issue?

edited 15th Mar '11 6:21:31 AM by ccoa

My take: a hero in the super-hero genre will, as their raison d'etre, fight violent crime and save lives more or less indiscriminately, regardless to how personally connected he or she is to the people being saved or the criminals being stopped. Therefore, someone like Goku, Naruto, or even the more super-hero-like characters like the Power Rangers or the Sailor Scouts don't qualify. The Gargoyles, despite lacking a lot of the trappings, qualify, but only after season 1, when they decide to purposely fight crime. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles qualify depending on the incarnation—they don't qualify in the first movie but nominally qualify in the fourth. Buffy The Vampire Slayer is borderline—she fights evil more or less indiscriminately, but it's a very particular type of evil. How does that work? Is this at all relevant to the thread?

edited 15th Mar '11 9:23:08 AM by DoKnowButchie

^^Negima might not be in "the Western Superhero Genre", but when have we ever had a trope which restricted examples to one genre? Cattle Drive and Train Job aren't restricted to only examples from Westerns, so why should this one?

How is "Character with non-natural abilties" and "Character with non-natural abilities but In A Specific Genre" a valid distinction that is vital for this trope?

A trope should either be present in a work, or not present. Not, "This series meets all but one of the requirements, but can't be listed because the last requirement is an arbitrary requirement for the work to also contain [List of Tropes that make up Genre X], even though they have no relation to this trope other than the page-writer said so".

...This has been explained before. I don't know why people still aren't seeing it.

The thing with this trope is that it is only a trope in aggregate. One or two or a hundred examples doesn't make the trope, it's only when you look at a genre as a whole (in this case, Western superheroes) and then discern the pattern that it's a trope.

One (or two, or a dozen) superheroine/villainess with big breasts, regardless of superpowers or costume, isn't a trope. 99.99% of all superheroines/villainesses with big breasts is a trope. If it were only 50%, or even 70%, it wouldn't be a trope at all.

That's why other genres are suspect, because they don't have the pattern that "all women in this category have big breasts".

"Big breasts" by itself is simply not a trope. It has to have conditions and make a pattern, like any other trope.

edited 15th Mar '11 10:03:24 AM by ccoa

Works in other genres may be suspect, but that doesn't mean you can write a specific clause excluding them into the trope description.

For example, Cattle Drive has pretty much only examples from westerns. Yet, there is nothing preventing such an example from existing. If "All female characters from a superhero comic who have extraordinary powers have large chests" is the core trope, then what is preventing it from being "All female characters from any work who have extraordinary powers have large chests", and just removing the bad examples?

I don't know where to start... Lacking cut and paste since I am on my phone.

First bold part. Soo X Men Mutants are not superheroes? Most don't even bother with hiding hiding who they are and most arcs are rather personal in nature. Quite a few don't wear spandex as rubber was the big fad after the X Men movie.

Flat "What"? DBZ let's see most if the red ribbon army arcs started because Goku found some random person and decided to help them. Goku sees a bus falling off a cliff he ditches his driving test and saves them, the Buu arc started because some guy asked for help, mist of early GT was this way too. And don't get me started on Gohan.

Naruto are Super Heroes for hire and will do anything from catching cats on up when asked, and will do random good stuff as they come across it. And sailor moon is worse.

Queens Blade every fighter has big breasts one whose are just huge and another spits acid from them... Sekirei sans a Token Loli and one guy every other person with powers is a big breasted girl.

We seem to be fighting around in circles on this... I don't think we are ever going to agree on exactly what Super Power and Super Hero is. People with a boob fetish will always try and fit their fav super hero in this because in their mind it fits.

Edit: +1 to all the arrows.

edited 15th Mar '11 11:02:35 AM by Raso

The problem is that it is not a trope in other mediums that anyone has been able to prove. "All female characters with extraordinary powers have large chests" as a trope is simply not held up by the evidence. In any other genre, it's a toss up whether a character with extraordinary powers will have a large chest. Since it isn't a pattern, it's not a trope.

Cattle Drive is not the same kind of trope, which is what I already tried to tell you. That's not a good analogy.

-_-

Okay, please re-read what I said. Let me point out the relevant part for you: "She will probably wear a costume, usually spandex, and have a secret identity." Probably and usually mean "not always" by any definition.

Your angry, half-incomprehensible, near-rants about why Negima fits are not helping this debate at all.

edited 15th Mar '11 10:59:27 AM by ccoa

And your unnecessarily limiting things one way then putting "may have" on everything else is driving me nuts. You can't limit things like that one way and expand the other just to keep it in one medium there are other mediums out there... Look at Sweat Drop or plenty of other seemingly medium specific tropes that gather outside examples.

edited 15th Mar '11 11:11:10 AM by Raso

But Sweat Drop is still not the same kind of trope. I don't know why this is so difficult to grasp.

Look, as I've tried to explain, this is only a trope if it occurs the vast majority of the time. If you open it to all mediums, it no longer occurs the vast majority of the time, and thus is no longer a trope.

Let me take one of your own examples. You claim Sailor Moon and Naruto contain superheroes. However, the super-powered females in those series are not universally or mostly large chested. Therefore, there is no pattern and no trope.

If we are going to declare this open to all genres, then the trope ceases to have meaning or pattern and just becomes "superpowered girl with big breasts", which is just not a trope and the whole thing should be cut.

The only genres it should be open to are those that display this pattern. At present, the only genre shown to display this pattern is Western superheroes.

edited 15th Mar '11 11:19:06 AM by ccoa

If they were intended to be drawn that way and have superpowers then yes it's a body type stereotype trope. If someone who has superpower is drawn with a heroic build that is a body type stereotype trope too. Comics were just the trope codifier.

Going along with what I said in the Buxom Is Better thread if it's drawn that way and any kind of skin tight outfit or Clothing Damage that calls attention to it, the trope is being invoked because they made a choice to draw them that way. No examples on the page except Lampshade Hanging, just character pages.

edited 15th Mar '11 1:37:18 PM by Raso

edit: Disregard, I think I read the post I responded to incorrectly.

edited 15th Mar '11 12:41:58 PM by Meeble

But the stereotype has not been shown to exist outside of the superhero genre. If you want another genre to be accepted to this trope, you have to show this stereotype exists in that genre. So far, you haven't even tried to do that, just quote examples that seem to contradict this stereotype as often as support it.

Just because an aspect of character design is deliberate doesn't make it a trope. It was a deliberate wardrobe choice that Cassie wore a black skirt. That doesn't make "black skirt" a trope unless we can find an additional meaning or pattern to that garment.

Second, drawing attention to her large breasts has nothing to do with this trope (and is not an Invoked Trope). I don't think Invoked Trope means what you think it means. What you're proposing alters the meaning of the trope.

I believe it originally got the name Most Common Super Power because it was a Fan Speak term for this particular fact. Either way, we should probably have it be something.

I agree with ccoa. It's only a trope in aggregate and only Western comics seem to have the trope in aggregate. Similar eastern works don't seem to demonstrate this trope and show a wider variety of acceptable builds for women in similar occupations. Good for them. This isn't a positive trope. It's a trope that says that this genre is shallow in some ways because it only knows how to draw women one way. I'm not sure why you would want to smear anime with it when it doesn't use it.

Specific Panty Fighter Anime series do use this trope for Rule Of Fan Service like Ikki Tousen, Tenjou Tenge, Sekirei, High School Of The Dead, Queens Blade (The character page has images of all of them... its not till the 4th season do any girls without big breasts show up.), Freezing, Agent Aika, Big Boobs with Superpowers or heavy weaponry across the board not counting that Token Loli or Token Pettanko.

Other series dabble in this with specific examples with Designated Girls With Big Boobs Fight to pander to this crowd.

Anyways the misuse comes from the body type being used for the stereotype which is what I was talking about earlier.

And with Heroic Build there are single character that spoof or call this trope out like [1]◊ this guy.

edited 15th Mar '11 7:49:12 PM by Raso

So a couple of individual titles have large chests but it's not used as a whole. That you for proving why manga doesn't count.

What? When a series uses every person who fights but the lone Token Loli as a whole THAT series should well fit. Seriously if its a full genre rule then why in the hell is this a trope? Again it should just a footnote on the superhero page then.

Not every single comic book super hero has huge boobs as well... [1]◊[2]◊

edited 15th Mar '11 8:01:34 PM by Raso

I find it amusing that the two examples you showed had chests that are at least Ds. And as we have been saying, it is the Superhero genre in aggregate. It is so common in this particular genre that if they don't have large chests it's lampshaded.

I do think that there is a place for works where every female character has large chests. It is not this trope though and it should not be badly shoehorned into this trope.

Those are way too small for D's C max on the first one and the second one has to be B-ish. and they are small compared to every one of those Panty Fighter series I listed....

[1]◊[2]◊[3]◊[4]◊[5]◊[6]◊[7]◊

edited 15th Mar '11 8:11:18 PM by Raso

Those are about H cups. They're huge, but that doesn't mean the other chests are small. You don't need Gag Boobs like those to count.

edited 15th Mar '11 8:10:40 PM by shimaspawn