Description not Supported: Nonstandard Game Over

The latter actually seems to duplicate this trope in the description. The former merely applies to having enemies in everything, and not necessarily those that cause instant game over.

I mean something like in Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door, where Mario is told not to read a book, and if it does, it kills him (it turns out this is how a ghost on a train became one). It causes a game over, but it's not the kind of way you get it in the rest of the game.

Everything Trying to Kill You is about games where you take damage from pretty much everything that moves (and some things that don't), not about game overs specifically. It's a Wonderful Failure is about Game Over screens that show a cutscene revealing the consequences of the player's death/failure, rather than just Fade to Black with "Game Over" written on the screen. It's currently written as a subtrope of Nonstandard Game Over, but I don't think that's right — an It's a Wonderful Failure could be standard or nonstandard.

Hrm... could this make Nonstandard Game Over and It's a Wonderful Failure sister tropes?

Everything Trying to Kill You has never been a "game over condition" trope. If Nonstandard Game Over is implying that it is one, that is unfortunate.

Only in that they're both Game Over tropes. It's a Wonderful Failure can be a standard game over screen or a nonstandard one.

Yes, and It's a Wonderful Failure isn't just about creative Game Over screens, but ones that are given a more or less extended tribute through an immediate Bad Ending.

Hence, they're sister tropes. Related, some overlap, but still at their root describing different things.

I'm just going to leave the relationship between those tropes as is for now, and focus on what this trope actually means. I'm going with Some Sort Of Troper 's example:

"No, it's just 'Unusual game over message'. Like you might normally get some shot of "Game Over" in front of a coffin but if you do something whack like attack an allied NPC or your target for an Escort Mission you get "What a bloody idiot" and a shot of you in a military prison."

(Y'know, if you need more than two ^'s, you really should consider prefixing with @Username instead.)

K! I didn't know.

Oh yes, and BUMP!

Oh, cripes! This is the third trope I made that's in the repair shop this afternoon!

We've accumulated a few similar pages, and the distinctions between them aren't very clear. There's at least Non-Standard Game Over, It's a Wonderful Failure, The Many Deaths of You and Have a Nice Death. I've been thinking that we should go over our game over tropes and redesign them into a coherent whole instead of one that was built piecemeal. Give me a couple of days, and I'll see if I can't come up with a plan.

edited 27th Jan '11 6:38:24 AM by Kizor

Well, for one, Nonstandard Game Over + But More So = The Many Deaths of You.

On the other hand, It's a Wonderful Failure is not quite Have a Nice Death + But More So, but more of a Game Over + Bad Ending.

They're all pretty distinct already. Nonstandard Game Over is a Game Over screen that's different than the normal one. It's a Wonderful Failure is a Game Over screen that shows the results of your failure beyond your immediate death. The Many Deaths of You is when the game has a different death animations/scenes for different ways of dying. Have a Nice Death is when they game makes a joke (often at your expense) about your death.

So, laconic:

• Game Over: Screen that lets you know you lost.
  • Nonstandard Game Over: A different screen that lets you know you lost in a unique way.
  • It's a Wonderful Failure: A Game Over screen that shows you the results of failing your quest. May or may not be Nonstandard.
  • The Many Deaths of You: A large number of context-sensitive Game Over screens.
  • Have a Nice Death: A Game Over screen that jokes about your death. May or may not overlap with The Many Deaths of You.

But Nonstandard Game Over isn't strictly about the screen declaring Game Over, but the method used to achieve it (which is where this topic all started). Let's face it — many of Sierra's classic adventure games gave you just a generic message box with an image, a "Thanks for playing", and a "Restore / Restart / Quit". It wasn't until the SCI remakes that they really adopted the context-sensitive Have a Nice Death messages.

edited 27th Jan '11 10:47:54 AM by Stratadrake

No, it's about the actual screen. Quoth the article: "the Nonstandard Game Over, a special game over screen showing that you screwed up big this time" (emphasis mine). If there's a unique way to lose that just sends you to the normal game over screen, then it's not currently covered by Nonstandard Game Over.

If you're suggesting we change it, then that's one thing, but at the moment it only refers to the screen.

Yes, that's exactly what the topic has been about since the beginning. That part of the description isn't supported by examples.

edited 27th Jan '11 11:28:31 AM by troacctid

Native Jovian has the right of it. Nonstandard Game Over was about unique Game Over scenes, not methods, when it was launched. I admit I haven't kept a very careful eye, but it still seems to be that way now. An overwhelming majority of the examples are about scenes.

edited 27th Jan '11 12:42:17 PM by Kizor

Say what? Skimming the examples they all seem to talk about a different screen, which is what the trope is about as written. So... I don't get what you're saying.

Check the wicks. (Wait, didn't you already do that earlier? How could you not spot the pattern?)

Of punctuated titles:

• .hack: Using "Data Drain" too much is an unusual method of achieving a Game Over.
• 1-Up: Indigo Prophecy context, unusual method of getting a Game Over.
• Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth: Says there are many different ways of achieving a normal Game Over screen.
• America's Army: Various methods of breaking the army's rules of engagement punish the player by locking them up in military prison, then Game Over.
• Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney: Unclear.
• Castlevania: Chronicles Of Sorrow: Getting the Bad Ending unlocks a bonus chapter where other characters must take up the sword after the hero's been killed. Unsure what to call this.
• Chekhov's Volcano: Dark Sun context: A volcano level serves as a Timed Mission; if the timer hits zero it's Game Over.
• Don't touch it, you idiot!: Shadow Madness context, obviously a case of Shmuck Bait.
• If You're So Evil, Eat This Kitten: Modern Warfare 2 context. Response by another editor compares it to a Hopeless Boss Fight.
• ''Interstate '76': Context of Mech Warrior 2, driving off the edge of a map triggers a Game Over, with the player's comrades assuming the player has gone AWOL.
• It's a Wonderful Failure: (exempt)
• Kya: Dark Lineage: Getting zapped by Brazul's Transformation Ray turns Kya into a werewolf, and you restart from the closest checkpoint (same as dying). No actual Game Over screen; player has infinite continues.
• Magic: The Gathering: Two mentions. First is a pothole labelled "poison counter" under Xanatos Gambit. Second is causing a temporal paradox by failing to send mana energy back into the past after casting a future spell on a previous turn.
• Metroid: Other M: If Anthony is dropped into the lava by a certain monster, it's Game Over.
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door: Two links, both in the context of accepting the Big Bad's offer to become her servant together. Standard Game Over message, unusual method of achieving it.
• Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: In Case 5, presenting a piece of evidence too early results in a Game Over because it will get ruled illegal evidence.
• Prinny: Can I Really Be The Hero?: Unable to call this one.
• Screw This, I'm Outta Here: Mentioning Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Said that most secret characters will leave the party if left unconscious in a Jagd — but if this happens to the player it's a Game Over (pothole).
• Scurge: Hive: Dying after the main character's infection level hits 100% turns the character into a Scurge host; Game Over.
• Sonic The Hedgehog 2: Special Edition: Attempting to kill Silver Sonic in the Hilltop Zone nets a Game Over.
• Tetris: The Grand Master: A "torikan" ends the game if the player takes too long reaching a certain level. Sounds more like an invisible Timed Mission to me.
• The Legend Of Zelda: Majora's Mask: Arguably exempt as it's the current page image, but in this case it's both the method and result of triggering it: If time runs out, the moon crashes into the town and everybody dies in its impact fireball.
• What The Hell, Player?: Mentioned in the comments following Metal Gear Solid's famous "TIME PARADOX" game over message.
• You Can't Thwart Stage One: Context of Modern Warfare 2 context. See If You're So Evil, Eat This Kitten.

edited 28th Jan '11 9:48:25 AM by Stratadrake

Well, wicks aren't the same thing as examples.

If the wicks are bad, just fix 'em. I don't know for most of the ones you listed (though I can confirm that the Majora's Mask on is correct), but we can definitely nuke the non-video game ones. If you think we need a Nonstandard Loss Condition trope, then YKTTW it.

A full analysis (which would take considerable time) aside, a fair percentage are using Nonstandard Game Over as an unusual lose condition. And that's perfectly logical — Game Over itself is not about the screen those words appear on, but the game declaring you've lost.

edited 28th Jan '11 9:23:28 PM by Stratadrake

Game Over seems to cover both the fact of losing the game and the screen that is displayed when you do. (It could also use some significant pruning, but that's neither here nor there.)

Either way, YKTTW'd Nonstandard Loss Condition here.

My opinion is on the other side of the fence — I believe Nonstandard Game Over should be about the condition (just as Game Over is), with a separate trope reserved for the screen.

Game Over covers both. Given that Nonstandard Game Over has good wicks and redirects, and I'm still not convinced it's being misused, I'm hesistant to change its name.

• Tales of Destiny offers a unique example: if you manage to defeat Leon when he attempts to arrest you (a task requiring either cheats or insane amounts of early-game level grinding), you are treated to a positive Nonstandard Game Over, in which your budding party goes on to have zany adventures apparently unrelated to the ones the plot intended for them to have. Presumably, said zany adventures only last as long as it takes for the Big Bad to execute his plans and destroy the world, but the Nonstandard Game Over does not address this little issue.
• In TimeShift, if you block or otherwise interfere with certain movable objects while using your Time Reversal power, you get a non-standard Game Over due to Time Paradox
• In A Dance With Rogues, your character is subject to two loyalty tests in the middle of the first chapter. Failing either of them (selling the thieves' guild to the man in the Mysterious Note quest or going off north instead of returning to Betancuria in Lesson 7) causes the game to end and the standard credits to roll.
  • A more obscure Zelda Bad End can be found in The Minish Cap. As you fight through the last few enemies, Ezlo warns you that Vaati will be done draining the light force out of Zelda (fatally) by the time the bell rings three times. This can happen. The first two rings are scripted, but the bell will ring again if you take too long to beat the Darknuts.
• Breath Of Fire 2 has a case of a Nonstandard Game Over that's also a bad ending. A still screen depicting an army of demons taking over the world can be seen in one of two ways: either by choosing not to unseal the gate to the final dungeon, or failing to break out of the final boss's paralysis spell.
  • Breath Of Fire 3 also has a case of a Nonstandard Game Over, which doubled as a bad ending. It was achieved by submitting to the final boss and relinquishing Ryu's powers instead of fighting against her.
  • Breath Of Fire 4 also has a case of a Nonstandard Game Over, which (again) doubled as a bad ending. It featured Ryu ultimately agreeing with Fou-Lu, merging with him instead of battling him, and caused the player to CONTROL the final boss against the entirety of your former party. Destroying them was quick and brutal, and afterwards the game left no doubt in the player's mind as to the fate of humanity (it was blown up).
• Space Quest IV has the option, at one point, to access an in-game computer and "delete" the files for Space Quest IV. Doing so automatically quits the game, with no warning.
  • A similar thing happens if you type "cheat" in the second and third installments of Leisure Suit Larry.
  • Also as such if you shoot yourself in Freddy Pharkas: Frontier Pharmacist.

I'm not even halfway down the examples.