WMG / Frasier

Martin is not Frasier's father...
I've just been watching an old re-run of M*A*S*H. One of the earlier ones featuring Major Charles Winchester MD. I couldn't believe how much like Frasier this character is. Same accent, same pomposity, same verbosity, same sort of height and build, even the same sort of thinning-on-top slightly distressed hair. And also a doctor with an ego. Who is cluless around women. Who has just enough redeeming characteristics to make him, at bottom, a decent guy. AND from Boston. Watch him in action. This is an older Frasier in Korea in the early 1950's. Was Frasier's mother there in any capacity, like army nurse? Let's say Winchester got her pregnant. She met Martin Crane, then doing his GI service in Korea, and he made a honest woman of her, accepting the son as his... resulting in a son who, in the middle late 1990's, is in his forties and working as a psychiatrist in Seattle...
  • There's an actual episode of the series that explores this very possibility. An old colleague of Hester's comes to visit, and immediately displays many of the same mannerisms as Frasier and Niles. Martin begins to wonder if this man might really be Frasier and Niles' father, until he reveals to Martin that he is actually gay. The character was portrayed by David Ogden Stiers, who also played Winchester on M*A*S*H. Apparently the preceding troper was not the only person to notice the similarities between the characters—the writers did too. See below for remarks on Leland Barton.
    • His being gay isn't mutually exclusive with him possibly being Frasier's and Nile's biological father. He may well have been perceptive enough to tell Martin (and the audience) exactly the portion of truth to hear right then, not the additional hypothetical stuff where he was struggling with his sexuality throughout their long association and even when he succumbed to Martin's wife out of loneliness or lust on multiple occasions. He might even have left for Paris partly to get away from her because she was the one confusing him.

Daphne is a member of MI-6, the British Intelligence.
She's after information about one or more perhaps-unresolved cases ex-cop Martin Crane (the father) had worked on. Her accent keeps changing, as if she wasn't really from Manchester and her folksy manner is a facade, and her attitude towards Martin keeps changing. She was hired in as a physical therapist, and very quickly became the family's maid so she could have an excuse to shuffle through his belongings and get their mail. She marries Niles so she can stay close to Martin and keep at it...falling for him later by coincidental luck.
  • Must be a really important case for Daphne to keep up the façade for 10 years or so.

Maris is an alien.
This only makes sense, given all the descriptions of her.
  • Her fencing instructor did describe as a "not quite human woman".

Frasier has been in an asylum since his suicide attempt on Cheers
This is why his Cheers friends rarely show up — they aren't allowed to. Lilith shows up every once in a while for pity sex. His dad, like he said on Cheers, is dead; the one we see is just an invention to help make his life bearable. His radio show is really his giving advice to other inmates. His brother is, maybe, a manifestation of who he wishes to be — younger, slimmer, smarter, lucky ...but Maris is an indication of 'reality'. We never see her because she doesn't exist. She's a crack in the system.
  • But Frasier does see Maris several times, for example in the 5th season episode "Voyage of the Damned". It's only the viewers who don't see her. So, if Maris being The Ghost is supposed to indicate mental illness, it's the viewers who are crazy.
  • She's just visiting him and keeping up the illusion. People do visit people in asylums, you know.

Daphne forced Niles to marry her
The only reason Niles "didn't notice" her attraction to him is because he didn't love her. Niles isn't stupid! But Daphne did something off-camera and now he is forced to love her.
  • Er, shouldn't the names be the other way round?
    • Maybe that's a version of the show from an Alternate Universe. Which would make this a WMG about a WMG, and now my brain hurts.

It's all a fake
Frasier did move to Seattle from Boston, but he lucked out onto the first bit of Internet and has been emailing his old friends long stories about his awesome new life and friends and family. Only his long-established self-loathing screws up his fanfic, and then the comedy appears.
  • But he's clearly on the radio, and Sam heard his radio show when he was in Seattle. Explain that, sir!
  • The events Frasier described are different from the ones Sam actually experienced. Feeling sorry for the guy, Sam decides to keep quiet and goes along with it.
  • Same thing for Woody.

Frasier gets back together with Lilith after the events of the show
In one of the episodes of Cheers, there is a distant flash forward to when Frasier dies, and Lilith is mentioned as his wife. That's it, but that's sufficient. Here's the clip.
  • In Lilith's final appearance in the show, in the season 11 episode "Guns 'n Neuroses", it certainly seems like she and Frasier have reconciled the differences they used to have in the past. And due to the show's open ending, we never know if Frasier ends up in a lasting relationship with Charlotte. So Frasier getting back together with Lilith would actually be kinda fitting: during the course of the show he has many relationships, some of them longer (Lana, Fay, Charlotte), some of them shorter (most others), but it's Lilith he always keeps returning to.

Leland Barton, in the episode "Fathers And Sons," was lying about being gay and is their biological father
Sure, things like hobbies in common could easily be a coincidence. After all, these hobbies are one of the reasons why Leland and Hester got along so well; and Hester went on to instill the love for these things into a young Frasier and Niles. But Leland also looks rather like Frasier and Niles, and has a similar hair colour to the two boys (a hair colour neither Hester nor Martin share). And he has a number of allergies in common with Niles.

Of course, when Martin asks him what's up, he clearly understands what he's getting at quickly and tells Martin that he is gay. But, as earlier episodes went to great lengths to tell us, a cultured way of speaking and a passion for the finer things don't indicate that someone is gay.

Why did he lie to Martin? If your secret lover's husband asked you if you were the father of his children, then you might lie, too.

  • Leland, knowing he would probably never see Martin again, only told him he was gay to give Martin some peace of mind. (Note: I consider this Poison Oak Epileptic Trees.]]
  • After I watched that episode a time or two the same idea occurred to me. I thought I may have stumbled into a bit of Fridge Brilliance there (Fridge Horror??) and scrutinized his performance during his last scene much more carefully the next time I saw it. I did not note any sign that he was just playing dumb. Of course that could just mean the character is good at playing dumb....
  • Culture and "a passion for the finer things" don't automatically make you gay, but they don't automatically rule out of the possibility, either.
  • I'd just like to add, I always found that the way Leland said "I'm gay" sounded sort of out of the blue, like he came up with it on the spot.
    • Watch it again. He does not just suddenly say, "I'm gay." What he says is, "Enough to reveal to her the fact that I was gay," and in response to Marty asking him how much he loved Hester. It's anything but out of the blue: he's answering a question, and both his performance and the wording of his line ("You know, forty years ago people weren't as understanding about those things as they are now...") suggests not that he's desperately improvising a lie but that he is matter-of-factly discussing something that he believes Marty already knew in the first place. Roz has many good points about how Frasier and Niles, despite being the opposite of Marty in their lifestyle choices, still seem to have inherited quite a lot from him.
      • When Leland says that line, there's a notable pause between the "enough to" and "reveal to her I was gay" bits. This pause is what makes it seem like he's coming up with an explanation that would satisfy Marty on the spot. On the other hand, you could also interpret the pause as Leland having difficulties admitting such a sensitive thing about himself. It's perfectly possible that the writer, or the actor, wanted that scene to be a bit ambiguous. And like Roz says in the episode, it doesn't matter if Leland really is the biological father of Frasier and Niles: Marty is the one who raised them, he is their real father.
    • A good point: Who cares if they're biologically related? If you love someone, it doesn't matter. Love is way stronger than genes.
  • One of the easiest ways out of awkward questions is a partial truth if you're socially adept enough. Maybe he really was gay the entire time he was with Hester, but that doesn't preclude confusion, alcoholic libido, or the often fluid nature of sexuality. In any case, he wouldn't be the first (almost) exclusively gay man to father children the old-fashioned way.

Niles and Roz slept together after the episode Decoys.

Their attempts to break up Donny and Daphne so they could have them for themselves backfired horribly, resulting in the two of them becoming closer. They both needed comfort and, well, we know how Roz likes to be comforted, and they were in that rustic cabin...

Frasier along with cheers takes place in the DCU and Frasier and Niles Crane are both related to Jonathan Crane(Aka Scarecrow
Both Niles and Frasier are pychiatrists, however there is a dark secret they keep hidden from the cast of cheers. Jonathan Crane is in fact their Granduncle. Their Father's Uncle. Frasier's Father knows full well about Jonathan, and this is why he tried to keep himself and his sons distant from intellectualism, for fear of them ending up like their infamous Relative, Scarecrow. This is why Frasier moves to seattle in reality. to get as far away from Gotham (which is on the east coast) as possible.
  • Perhaps he was their goduncle who died. ("Dad, there's no such thing as a goduncle!") He seemed, from what we've heard, to have taken a great pleasure from scaring people—doing things such as dropping his glass eye into his mashed potatoes and declaring, "I'm watching what I eat!" Puns and sadistic fearmongering? You may have a point. Which brings up the question of how Scarecrow died in this universe and whether Frasier knew his secret identity. But then again, The Scarecrow doesn't have a secret identity outside of the Nolanverse...and a goduncle wouldn't share their last name...You know what? Never mind.
    • Not sure if this is what you mean to say, but the Scarecrow does in fact have a secret identity outside the Nolanverse; he's been Jonathan Crane in all of the media in which he's appeared.
  • How about Ichabod Crane?
  • Adding to the theory: perhaps Martin also had two sisters named Marion and Lila, and he decided to become a cop after Marion was brutally murdered in a motel shower. Also, perhaps Frasier and Niles developed interests in psychology after paying visits to Norman Bates in the asylum.

The Terwilliger family from The Simpsons is the Alternate Universe Counterpart of the Crane family.
Robert and Cecil are Frasier and Niles' Evil Twins. Whatever happened in the Simpsons universe that caused an ancestor of theirs to have a father named Terwilliger instead of Crane is the same thing that led to them becoming insane and/or criminal, and what made them aspire to be clowns rather than psychiatrists.
  • I actually just assumed this was a given.

Daphne wasn't actually acting in "Moon Dance".
She just thought Niles was saying all those things and playing up the eroticism of the tango in order to impress the guests, so she pretended she was acting too, not knowing that Niles wasn't actually acting. Niles fell for her hasty cover story, and of course pretended he was acting as well, apparently confirming Daphne's assumption.

Daphne was secretly in love with Niles for as long as Niles was secretly in love with Daphne.
They were both Oblivious to Love and both suffered from Cannot Spit It Out and both thought the other was not in love with them. It's just that Daphne was better at hiding it from the audience than Niles, and unlike him, never got into discussions of her feelings with anyone else (possibly because of Maris). She could have interpreted all of Niles' uncontrollable flirtations and double entendres the same way the audience interpreted Daphne's "oblivious" double entendres and accidental flirtations, and pretended they went over her head because she was so tempted by what she thought were innocent slips of the tongue on Niles' part that she couldn't handle joking around with him about them.
  • There was one episode (can't remember the name for it, but it was the Christmas episode where they were all getting massages) where they kept showing the same scenes from different people's POVs. The first time we see Daphne enter the room she pauses under the mistletoe and Niles makes a typical ambiguously phrased statement. But when we see it again from Daphne's POV, Niles says something completely different which could not be taken at all as any kind of innuendo. So either she is oblivious, and was giving a mangled version of what she thought he said, or your theory is correct and she altered what she said to hide what she thought was Accidental Innuendo.
    • Though it's worth noting that this is presented as Daphne telling the story to a masseur Frasier hired to help everyone calm down after a terrible Christmas, and everyone else also ends up telling him about their recent travails. So perhaps she's deliberately hiding the fact that she's interested in Niles, or at least not letting on that she catches the double meanings in what he says.
  • She does get irrationally angry at her friend who shows interest in Niles. It seems like she's just being sympathetic to Niles, especially knowing how her friend tends to behave. Later on, it sounds more like Suspiciously Specific Denial given that she dates an exact close of Niles.
  • In "Daphne Hates Sherry," when she shows up at Niles' apartment asking to spend the night, they both look like they're on the verge of tearing each other's clothes off. It could be argued that she was just feeling lonely (plus she had been drinking champagne), but she did come to him, not the other way around.
  • Jane Leeves said that she always thought that Daphne was in love with Niles but couldn't admit it. Not that her opinion is any more valid than anyone else's.

Frasier takes place in The Sandman universe.
When Martin and Niles argue over who got closer to Death, Martin claims that he kissed Death on the lips before hastily adding that it was a girl. In The Sandman, Death is indeed a girl.
  • This would tie in well with the above WMG about Frasier being in the DCU, especially since Scarecrow has appeared in The Sandman.

Roz DID want to have a threesome with Niles and Daphne in "Proxy Prexy"
When she misinterprets what Niles says to mean they're inviting her to a menage a trois, Roz is initially dumbfounded, but after a few seconds, when Daphne accidentally perpetuates the misinterpretation by saying "well, do you have anything to do this afternoon?", she responds with a fairly curious "well...noooo...but..." and was extremely embarrassed and defensive when they kept teasing her about it afterwards. She definitely was interested.
  • She may have just been flattered.

Daphne eventually murders Niles and commits suicide
In one episode a psychic apparently told Daphne she'd end up killing her family and herself (and the psychic was right about Daphne moving to Seattle). After all, Daphne does act pretty odd at times. Also, she worked for a psychiatrist for ten years and then marries another one - all those references to emotional instability evoked her own. She seems to lose a lot of her personality after marrying Niles. Then there was the whole thing about Niles idealising her as the "perfect" woman (talk about pressure!). She also came from a family with a substance abuse history (which is statistically more common in people with emotional problems). Besides that, a sad upbringing doesn't help (and she mentions it throughout the series, often with a passive-agressive attitude). Maybe this explains her wavering accent - perhaps the instability in her voice reflects the instability of her emotions. She seems to repress a lot - one never sees her lose her temper the way Frasier, Martin, Roz or even Niles do. The only outburst that's really poignant is when she smashes the vending machine at the hospital (and that's a real healthy way to express yourself!). If she keeps repressing all this pain from her childhood and adulthood, it just builds and builds. Until one day she snaps in order to let it all out in one striking catastrophe.
  • Wrong. They'll both just hug and turn into tang.
  • She gives Frasier a huge rant about his spending money while he's out of work in "Roz, a Loan" and again in the sequence in "Crock Tales" that's supposed to take place at that same time. Her shouting matches with Martin and with her mother also count as does her reaction to the events in "Dark Side of the Moon". So she doesn't entirely repress her feelings.

Captain Morgan Bateson of the U.S.S. Bozeman is a distant descendent of Frasier's.
It's just Identical Grandson taken to extremes. It seems that the Crane family's tendency towards professional excellence did not die off, as Frasier's several-times great-grandson became Captain of a Soyuz-class starship. On the other hand, the Crane family's tendency to get oneself into huge disasters didn't die out either, as he got trapped in a time loop for 90 years.
  • Jossed: Noel mentions Star Trek as a fictional franchise.
    • Or so he thinks. It could be like Galaxy Quest. Stop for a second, Noel. it's all real. Noel: Oh my God, I knew it! I knew it!! I knew it!!!

Niles and Frasier are Time Lords
Think about it. They both subscribe to outdated schools of psychology. Obviously they have both travelled through time from the past and haven't been updated on modern schools of thought! It all makes sense now. They're Time Lords!
  • They're half-human on their father's side - Martin was Hester's companion and she died after running out of regenerations. As for Time Lord names, Niles and Frasier will fight over who gets to be the Psychiatrist, with Frasier letting Niles take that while he becomes The Listener in honor of his catchphrase.
    • Or she was taken for the Time War and never told them of their heritage to keep them safe.

Several Revolution characters have watched this show.
If Jeremy Baker apparently watched One Life To Live, a number of the older characters probably remember this show.

Donny didn't "decide" to drop the lawsuit.
A colleague reminded Donny, obviously not in his right mind, how his lawsuit wasn't legally possiblenote  and that falsely threatening to sue people could get himself sued for abuse of process, so he dropped it and ran.
  • Or alternatively, Donny himself came to this realization once he'd calmed down and straightened his mind out a bit, but in order to preserve some dignity from the whole affair he decided to leave this part out when "dropping" the suits.

Martin died around 2010.
John Mahoney passed away in 2018 at the age of 78. Presuming Martin was about eight years older than John, it would make sense that he passed away at the same age eight years prior.

Frasier went to Chicago for Kate, not Charlotte.
The entire Charlotte storyline was a red herring, and Frasier made the last-minute decision to go to Chicago because he realized he never stopped loving Kate. She was arguably the only woman he dated who was his intellectual equal, and it is possible Charlotte's spiel about being so love that you couldn't sleep at night triggered memories of her.