Headscratchers: Golden Sun
New entries on the bottom. And don't forget to put Dark Dawn Headscratchers on the Dark Dawn Headscratchers page!
open/close all folders
Alex and the Mars Star
- Alex had a perfect opportunity to grab the Mars Star from Isaac after Isaac and co.'s fight with Saturos. He would have won and would have taken the star from them. Why do you think he didn't do this after the Saturos fight in Mercury Lighthouse?
- I think he was just being smug since they all knew Alex could take them out and didn't want to have them hate him to the point where he couldn't manipulate them later to further his secret plans. He was also fairly impressed that the party actually succeeded in taking out Saturos and his cousin Mia is in the party. Either it is kindness for his cousin, his manipulative nature, his pride, or him just being impressed and giving them a "reward" for it, is never explained, though. It could just be a Villain Ball as well.
- Why don't they give some Mercury Lighthouse water to Dora, Isaac's mother, when she gets sick? Okay, sure, she's pretending that Isaac can't visit her...but can't he give the pitcher to a neighbor or something and ask them to give it to her without mentioning him?
- Because the Wise One will no doubt find a way to stop them for some reason.
- Her illness is largely psychsomatic (which, come to think of it, might have more serious implications for psychic people), being caused by the fact that her only son (who is all she has left, after the tragic death of her husband) is being forced to leave home at a young age to embark on a dangerous quest to save the world. Mercury psynergy can't heal that.
- Because they didn't have the premonition to know Dora would get sick.
- Even if the group restores Alchemy to the world, won't Gaia Falls erode Weyard anyway? It's not like it's gonna stop waterfalling, right? And why is there still an ocean if Gaia Falls are continuously spilling the ocean into oblivion?
- It is a fantasy world; my guess is, with Alchemy restored, the elements worked harmoniously enough that the water stopped eroding, though it still waterfalled. Not much science in it, but then again...
- As for the water, it's entirely possible water just springs up from the ocean floor on account of Alchemy. (Face it; that excuse explains a lot.)
- The lack of sufficient alchemical power is what sustains the world. I think the idea was that alchemy would allow the edge landmass to regenerate at a sufficient rate to counteract the erosion. As for the waterfalls, either alchemy or there are springs sourced by wherever the water falls off to.
- If you think about it, odds are the water loops around to the underside of the world, and becomes underground springs which eventually flow back up....hey, it makes sense.
- Some NPCs in the game have similar questions about Gaia Falls, so perhaps it's actually a plot hook?
- Which clearly demonstrates the need for a sequel.
- Which is why one is being developed.
- ... and the sequel didn't answer anything. Next!
- In-game lore states that Aqua Rock produces infinite amounts of water.
Jupiter and Mars lighthouses
- What exactly did Menardi mean by "lighting Jupiter is virtually the same as lighting Mars"? The only real similarity between those two lighthouses is that they've got side towers and are more complicated than the first two...
- Basically, she meant that their quest would be all but done once Jupiter was lit. She was operating under the same flawed assumption as Karst that Mars would be easy to light because they were from Prox.
- Maybe Saturos and Menardi planned on having Agatio and Karst help them get through Mars or something?
- First of all, it was Venus Lighthouse they were lighting, not Jupiter. As explained in the game, Venus and Mars are very closely related and the power of one can be used in place of the other. However, since you still need to go light Mars at the end of the 2nd game, it is still a valid question.
- It's simple. She and Saturos were just plain stupid. Alex makes this clear when he says that they were exceptional warriors, but quite simply knew nothing about how the lighthouses worked, how they operated, how the puzzles and riddles within could be solved. They probably just assumed that three beacons would be enough to save the world, or at least prolong its decay (which turned out to be wrong since Mercury and Jupiter being lit just made it colder). Somewhat justified in that the Fire Clan seems to raise its people to be warriors, as opposed to the Mercury Clan who seem to know a bit more about how their machines work.
Getting into lighthouses
- In-game lore states that you need an Adept of the correct element to get into a lighthouse, but you need Reveal to get into Venus Lighthouse. And that's not even getting to the puzzles within each lighthouse that require Psynergy of the wrong element....
- That's a damn good point! In order to get into Venus Lighthouse you need to use Reveal (at least three times) and none of Alex's group would know it! Near the end of the first game we're lead to believe that Sheba gets them in, but Sheba doesn't even know Reveal yet! She doesn't learn it until Air's Rock!
- Some of the scholars mention that outside of the "fake" lighthouse Felix seemed to glow for a second, then the doors opened. You needed to enter that lighthouse first to enter the "true" lighthouse. So, a Venus Adept was needed, but it wasn't shown on screen. I also don't think the lore says that you only need an adept of one tribe to solve the puzzles.
- It's basically implied. Near each lighthouse except Venus is a village containing only people of one element. It would be a bit inconvenient if they had to wait for travellers from somewhere else to enter their own lighthouse. Really it's just Gameplay and Story Segregation (after all, Saturos's group didn't even have Reveal), but it stills bugs me.
- Alex can Warp. He warps everyone everywhere. That's about as plausible of a explanation as I can think of.
- Don't you need "Carry" to get through the Lighthouse? This Troper forgets whether or not anyone can use the Carry Stone, but it is Earth Psynergy.
- ''Alex warping!
- Why does Dora, all through the first game, claim that Isaac had promised to not come back until the quest was done?
- Because he did?
- Not according to my copy. The relevant conversation is as follows:
Great Healer: We cannot hope for salvation. We must save ourselves...
Dora: Then what can we do?
Great Healer (indicating Isaac and Garet): Acquiring the Elemental Stars is their fate alone.
Dora: Are you suggesting we place the fate of the world... in the hands of Isaac and Garet?
Great Healer nods
Mayor: Garet is only a child. You can't expect him to bear such a burden...
Great Healer: The Wise One has spoken. Each of you shares responsibility for this. Now, each of you must make your own decision!
Garet: I don't know what to do. Isaac, you decide.
Great Healer: Isaac, will you accept responsibility for the fate of the land?
- Garet bemoans Isaac's acceptance of the quest, the Mayor berates Garet, the Wise One offers cryptic instructions and advice (including to look for Djinn), partly through the Great Healer, the Great Healer and the other Healers wander off, and Dora and the Mayor decide to send the boys off "Tomorrow." Nothing in that about not coming back.
- Erm, well, that just means that the particular scene about Isaac making a promise to Dora wasn't shown on screen, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Following the above "relevant conversation" is a time skip to the next day which skips over a potentially long period of nighttime, which would be Isaac's last night spent with his mother. That would be an ideal block of time for Isaac to make that promise to her...
- Yeah, I just figured the promise happened offscreen, too.
- That's hardly a valid excuse considering how long the game's text is. If he made that promise it should have been shown. It could have been done in less than 10 words. And would give him some actual on screen character.
Preventing volcano from explosion
- Why can't the Wise One keep the volcano from blowing up? If a Mars Adept can summon multiple columns of magma (presumably from underground), surely it's not too difficult to set off a few controlled eruptions from time to time, on the other side of the mountain?
- A townsperson later in the game notes that the eruption nearly split the continent in two and as you later find out first hand, its sprayed psyenergy stones all over the planet. It was a very powerful eruption. Wise One was able to save the continent and the town right next to it, so good enough.
Karagol ship and Kalay
- Why doesn't the Karagol Ship go back to Kalay? The crew members know/saw the team fight off the monsters, why don't they simply ask them to provide security for the return trip?
- It's realism. Regardless of whether the monsters can, in the end, be conquered, there's still a large chance of them injuring crew or the ship. Had that kraken been a bit more intelligent, it would have simply torn some holes in the ship's hull and bye goes everyone.
- Also, a large part of the crew got injured, and I doubt it's gonna be easy to find new willing rowers with the rumors of monsters proven true. (Which means the thousand tourists who came to see the Colosso probably got stranded in Tolbi for a while.)
Karagol and rowers
- While we're on the subject of the Karagol ship, during its voyage, Isaac and his party are told to protect the oarsmen from monsters. But if you explored the ship, you have to realize: there is only one way into the rowing deck, which is through the door and down the stairway, past all the passengers standing right behind it. All the monsters got through to the oarsmen that way, so why was Isaac and co. given such a massive Idiot Ball where they could've just guarded the door to prevent monsters from coming in? Four times?
- Why does Alex even need a boat? Why didn't he just teleport?
- Teleportation may be a short-distance thing only, or perhaps it requires him to physically (and invisibly) move himself, which would make teleporting across the sea the equivalent of swimming there, or at least walking that distance or something. In short, Power Limiter.
- Or maybe he simply doesn't have the PP for long-distance teleporting at the time.
- ... holy crap this just finally made me come to terms with the TLA ending.
- What's with Sheba's change in personality between games? In Golden Sun she cries her eyes out over the fact that she'll never see Lalivero again, but in the Lost Age she'd rather travel the Eastern Sea with Felix, and refuses to return to Lalivero because they "might not let her leave". Make up your mind girl!
- Consider that during the first game she was being held by the far from nice duo of Saturos and Menardi, while in the second game she adventured with the much nicer group of Felix and the others. She'd probably have come to enjoy traveling with people who treated her as an equal.
- Or maybe she just doesn't like the idea of being forced to stay anywhere against her will.
- Survivor's guilt, she could have been dead after the end of the first game. Time may also have put the whole "dying planet issue" in perspective.
- In the Lost Age, the price at the Inn changes with you're number of characters, for example, at Dalia, the price when you have Felix, Jenna, and Sheba is 6 coins, and goes up to 8 when you add Piers. When Isaac and the group from GS 1 joins it goes up to 16 coins. Yeah I get it, two coins per character, but here's the thing, what about Kraden? Why don't they charge for him?
- Senior's discount?
- As a non-warrior, perhaps Kraden does not need to rest, given no one else in the game seems to sleep too much. I'm actually half-serious...
- He's still walking great distances, climbing ladders, and jumping ledges. Maybe he's not that far into his age yet.
- Because Kraden is Badfreakingass.
Babi the villain
- Why is Babi portrayed as anything other than a irredeemable villain? Let's look at everything he's done: 1. Steals a ship, a priceless artifact, and an immortality potion from a Utopian society. 2. Abandons his only friend there, so that he can never see his wife and young son again. 3. Rules Tolbi with an iron fist for well over a century. 4. When he learns he may soon die of old age (at 150 years old!) he invades another city, kidnaps its Messiah (a 14-year-old girl), and uses her to blackmail the population into working as slave labor to build him a tower atop that city's sacred ruins on the off chance that looking from high up the tower will allow him to see where Lemuria is so he'll have a slightly increased chance of returning, so he can steal more immortality potion. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say he's the single most evil person in all of Weyard.
- Affably Evil? Most of this comes to light well after you first meet and befriend him, so it's not as though, upon saving his life, he'll go ahead and let you know he's a Complete Monster.
- That's not my point, my point is, even knowing this Isaac's party is still willing to go on the mission he gave them, as if the fact that the person who gave them it was a twisted old tyrant didn't come into the equation at all.
- Well, if he really was such a CM, maybe they realized it and were Genre Savvy enough to realize that declining would probably get them the same treatment as Sheba, if not worse. And he did give them a boat when they agreed. Also, Isaac's party never actually seemed to make it to Lemuria, and given that you don't see them until Jupiter Lighthouse in The Lost Age, it's entirely possible somewhere along the way they decided that it wasn't worth the trouble for an evil tyrant, especially once he was dead. Either that or they lost the boat and don't want to tell him. Mind you, this is all venturing into Epileptic Trees territory, but it's the best I've got when the characters, much as I love them, are pretty flat.
- As for your last sentence, I'm pretty sure that Isaac and co. felt the same way that Felix and co. did: once Babi was dead, there was no more need to do his dirty work. That said, it raises any number of obvious questions about what Isaac was actually doing between the end of GS 1 and Jupiter Lighthouse. Anyone else have a vision of the four of them just taking a nice, luxury cruise (at Babi's expense!) around the Great Eastern Sea until Felix finally opens up the passage to the west, then sneaking into Jupiter Lighthouse while Felix wastes time with Trial Road?
- Completely unrelated, but I remember having a fun time writing fanfic in which Garet was highly suspicious of Babi and kept calling him an evil twit.
- Another theory, Values Dissonance. It could be they believe that one is bound by their word, or that since Babi is of a higher social standing than themselves, they have to obey him, or maybe they don't see him as evil. Weyard's culture is never discussed in detail.
- Babi didn't actually do anything evil to either group in the games. All we really know about him is that he didn't want to die painfully and kept a large city running fairly. He may well have been a very benevolent (or at least not malign) ruler who simply wanted to know that his kingdom could run smoothly. Ignoring all that, he was the only hope any of the group had for navigating the Venus Lighthouse thanks to its ruined state.
- Actually, after Piers joins your party and you return to Madra before meeting Karst and getting Cyclone, the townspeople state that they met Isaac and company. We also find out they did find Lemuria, but couldn't defeat Poseidon. They went east to find Felix's group and Piers but you came back before you could meet up.
- Babi always struck me as ruthlessly efficient and amoral rather than, you know, Caligula. His people and his servants all seem to like him just fine, especially when compared to Dodonpa up in Lunpa- his people are sick of him, and will say so. Tolbi's pretty much a kinder, gentler Rome- there's a distinct lack of bloodshed at Colosso, and cities are conquered, not exterminated, since while the workers at Babi's lighthouse may hate the guy, they're still getting paid.
- When the party first meets Babi, they don't actually know he's something of an evil ruler. He puts on a pretty affable act. It's not until things develop further that he starts to get suspicious. By the time they realise that he took Sheba as a hostage, they probably catch on to the fact that he's not the nicest guy in the world but choose to keep schtum because his Yes-Man is traveling with them.
- Going back to the Rome analogy, Tolbi is the most advanced civilization in the world barring maybe Lemuria, it has a University that said Yes-Man is part of, and is the major trading hub of the continent. I don't think hamstringing the continent's political and economic stability is a good idea especially considering, there was A. a natural disaster that tore the continent in half, B. said disaster made much of the wildlife go insane and spawned monsters every where, and C. the world's being ending for centuries and the political balance is only getting worse. Besides it's not like leaving his friend in Lemuria was a Fate Worse Than Death, though it wasn't ideal. It could have been too difficult to bring Lunpa with him for whatever reason. We never did learn all the details about it, just that Babi left a letter to Lunpa saying he had to leave him on the island. When you meet Lunpa, he isn't very resentful (he is too upset when it's mentioned that Babi just died, either.)
Apoji water adepts
- Why are there no water Adepts in the Apojis? There are Wind Adepts in Garoh, Fire Adepts in Kimbombo, and Earth Adepts in Izumo. The Apojis are just as close to Aqua rock as those other towns are to their elemental rocks, so why no Adepts?
- There wasn't any plot relevance to talking with adepts at Apoji, although presumably if they know how the tearstones work, they have adepts.
- In Garoh they mention that the Psynergy Stone particles get carried there from Air's Rock by the wind. If something equivalent is happening for the other three (contaminating the soil/crops in Izumo or something, for example), then presumably all the particles from Aqua Rock are getting sucked over Gaia Falls before they can reach Apojii.
- What Fire Adepts in Kibombo? The only Adept I recall seeing in Kibombo is Akafubu, and the only named Psynergy we see him use is Lift... which is a Mercury Psynergy.
- An NPC mentions that the witch doctor's powers come from Magma Rock.
- Isaac is directly labeled almost 17 after the prologue ends in the first game ("You're almost seventeen. You're so much like Kyle was when he was young.") The storm was 3 years ago. Isaac looks nothing like the 13/14 year old he should be at that point.
- Since when do young video game characters ever reliably look their age? Garet and Jenna also look too young.
- Ivan looks about ten.
- Felix looks too old.
- Why does Mia's apprentice have power that exceeds hers? He can cast Revive, something Mia can not do for quite a bit.
- The student had exceeded the master.
- In the Japanese version, Alex was Mia's father's apprentice. I'm guessing that got lost in translation.
- No, not Alex, the kid in the Sanctum, who appears in the place of the guy in every town who will cure down/curse/poison ect.
- Gameplay and Story Segregation. But if you want justification, well, it's probably easier to do the proper healing techniques in a calm building then it is in the middle of a field surrounded by monsters, or worse, actual combat. Mia learning Revive is just learning how to do it fast.
- Or the kid just has the right material... like a bunch of Waters of Life, and that's what he makes you pay for.
- Given that Earth Adepts are the only ones seen learning Revive through leveling up, perhaps the apprentice is simply an Earth Adept who has that power naturally.
- Except he and that girl with him explicitly state that they're members of the Mercury Clan.
- So... he has some Venus Djinn and thus a Revive-granting class?
- Using expensive material you are charged for sounds good
- It could also be that adepts learn different abilities at different rates and times. While the kid could cast revive, it could just be his personal specialty and is abysmal at combat abilities, has low PP reserves and other stats (making it hard for him to cast spells for a long time), etc. Some abilities seem to come naturally to some, while others have to go to temples or the elemental rocks to learn them. Sometimes they need to be holding an item to perform a technique while another just does it on their own. There are a few adepts who actually abilities that seem very advanced, but are their specialty. One person who comes to mind is the artificial adept that has premonitions, the other being the fortune teller who seems to have no other abilities besides seeing the future.
Earth and Fire symbiotic relationship
- So you come to the end of the and defeat both Saturos and Menardi. Or So we think, they both get up toss the Elemental star inside the lighthouse and and it activates. Now this has been biting at me for a while. Menardi states that "Earth and Fire have a symbiotic relationship." OK so, they power up, Fusion Dance, and then transform into the fusion dragon. Now, why couldn't Garet, or even Isaac, for that matter, couldn't channel that same energy to augment their abilities? It would have made the ending much more exciting.
- Gameplay and Story Segregation was in fact averted here: after the beacon's been lit, Isaac and Garet's PP are fully refilled when you start the Fusion Dragon fight.
- Along with the below comment, the Fusion Dance thing is likely extremely draining, dangerous and unstable.
- At a guess, because they didn't know how. Saturos and Menardi are a lot more experienced, they probably have a better idea about how to use power in their surroundings. However, that raises another question...
- Why don't the Lighthouses weaken your opposite-element party members like Mercury Lighthouse weakened Saturos?
- This one puzzled me for a long time until I started playing through most recently. Saturos and Menardi are from the Fire Clan. Perhaps members of actual clans are more sensitive to the Lighthouse effects than regular Adepts. Proxians are of the Fire Clan, but your party members... well, I don't really remember. Are the Lemurians the Water Clan, or is that Mia and Alex? Is Ivan of the Wind Clan? Sheba probably would be, though the Mars Lighthouse and (obviously) the Jupiter Lighthouse would have no adverse effect on her. Garet and Jenna are not of the Fire Clan, and I don't think an Earth Clan was ever alluded to within the games.
- Mercury was the only lighthouse to be entered by the party after being activated. Now as for why Garet wasn't affected...
- Clans seem to be mainly a cultural thing though. The only thing that's ever given any significance within the games is the element a person is aligned to, but I have figured out how your theory can still work in the context of the games. Look at all the other adept settlements, except for Lemuria, they're only exposed to one element by proximity to a lighthouse or an elemental rock. Adepts in Vale however, are exposed to all four elements by proximity to Mt. Aleph and the elemental stars. Isaac, Felix, Jenna, and Garet would have developed a stronger resistance to their opposing elements by constant exposure that members of the individual clans wouldn't have. Similar to how symptoms of airborn allergies can be relieved by prolonged exposure to trace amount of the allergens in question. So Garet would have been affected by the beacon if the party had spent more time in the lighthouse. It was just taking longer because Garet has been exposed to some noticeable amount of water elemental energy his whole life, while for Saturos and Menardi, it was their first time being exposed to anything more than the most trace amounts of their opposing element.
- Above is a good enough explanation, but it's really Gameplay and Story Segregation. Your party has access to Dijinn, so there is no guarantee that Garet hasn't slapped on a bunch of water elementals and Ivan is the party's go to fire starter. Programming all the possibilities probably became a headache.
- Point of minor nitpicking; no matter what powers you give the Adepts, they remain the same "kind" of Adept.
- That still wouldn't explain why Mia and Piers aren't weakened by the Mars lighthouse.
- They aren't weakened by the Mars lighthouse, since the beacon has not been lit at any time they fought.
- Maybe the Djinn counteract it? Or maybe because the dev team didn't want to reduce Garet's effectiveness against Saturos any further by weakening him, and it'd be annoying to have a severely weakened party member running around the Mercury Lighthouse, and fighting the Final Boss. I'm also surprised they don't try to pull this in Lost Age, because the Jupiter Lighthouse is lit behind Agatio and Karst, and I imagine that Jupiter and Mercury have a symbolic relationship like Venus and Mars do.
- Actually, I think it just has something to do with the Proxian race as a whole. Extreme cold is shown as being extremely debilitating to them in their town. Given that the Mercury Lighthouse is in a frozen region, and Saturos was literally standing next to the beacon during the fight, he was probably suffering some kind of extreme frostbite. Garet doesn't have that problem because, being from Vale, he's more "human" than the draconic Proxians.
- Probably wrong: Garet is sensitive to the lighting of Venus Lighthouse - he doesn't get PP at each turn while in the Lighthouse like Isaac does, but his PP is refilled for the Fusion Dragon battle just like Isaac's.
Teleporting to the Mars Star
- Something that really had me wondering every time I played through Sol Sanctum; why didn't Alex just teleport over to the Mars Star, at any point? Especially after the place started falling apart; all he did was pout and tell everyone to leave. If he could teleport/float over to Garet to get the first three, why not go for broke and nab the fourth?
- Because that would be too easy and then you wouldn't be playing Golden Sun now would you?
- Sol Sanctum, being part of Mount Aleph, is special. This is related to why the Wise One couldn't just stop the Mount Aleph eruption. Perhaps the stars emitted force fields while in their slots in the Sanctum that prevented access to their pedestals through psynergetic means?
- Confirmed! Try using retreat in the sol/luna rooms before and after you grab the stars.
- I just started a new game, and I noticed that too. But then I realized that Isaac had the Mythril pouch, so I guess he needed to take it. I suppose Alex could have just taken the pouch from him, but that's the best I got.
- Also, Alex has proven he likes to make people work in his stead. And Saturos and Menardi probably know that even if they told him to move it, somehow I doubt he would have obeyed them.
- Vale is clearly known to the general population (there are roads leading there, and someone who made his living as a trader should know something of geography), so why does Hammet decide to go to a Wretched Hive over the seemingly normal little town?
- Because he doesn't want to go near a town that just experienced a volcanic eruption.
- Plus at the start of the game it is sealed off from the world, no one is allowed to leave, which implies no one is allowed to enter (if that isn't explicitly said).
- There have to be some visitors, at least under special circumstances, as Masked!Felix was apparently an out-of-towner, but the point still stands; Vale isn't exactly a popular vacation resort.
- Visitors are mentioned, and it's mentioned that the Vale residents have to keep Psynergy a secret from them. Psynergy is such a huge part of their lifestyle that one would think it hard to hide from visitors, especially with that huge honking crystal in the middle of town, so maybe everyone's creeped out by the apparent Town with a Dark Secret.
- Because his ultimate goal was to return to Kalay. The direct route from Vault wasn't an option because the bridge was out, so his only option was to take the long way around, which unfortunately passed nearby Lunpa (he wasn't planning on stopping there, mind you). Vale may have been less dangerous, but the road to Vale ends at Vale, so going there had no chance of getting him back to Kalay.
Shaman's Rod for Sheba
- When Saturos and Isaac were bartering for Sheba, why didn't Saturos demand the Mars Star in addition to (or perhaps instead of) the Shaman's Rod?
- When Saturos throws the Venus Star into the lighthouse, he says that because Venus and Mars have a symbiotic relationship, he and Menardi are able to regain their power. One would assume that Mercury and Jupiter thus have a symbiotic relationship as well. So why is it, then, that by default your characters have the lowest elemental Resistance to their so-called symbiotic partner? (Isaac has low Mars resistance, Garet has low Venus resistance, Ivan has low Mercury resistance, and Mia has low Jupiter resistance. This also applies to Felix's party in TLA.
- If you're okay with some really strained pseudoscience, perhaps the reason is that, as these elements are symbiotically related, evolution just plain decided there would be no reason to expect an attack from a related element.
- Maybe it's easier for the psynergy of the complementary element to flow into them, for better or worse.
- That's just the elements themselves, as far as anyone's resistance, that varies from individual to individual. Dullahan and Deadbeard both resist Mercury but one is weak to Jupiter and the other to Venus, for example.
Saturos, Menardi, Lemurian ship
- How exactly did Saturos and Menardi get their hands on a Lemurian ship?
Saturos and Menardi's plan
- So let me see if I understand Saturos and Menardi's plan? First, they without ever bothering with an olive branch of peace to calmly discuss their plight with the authorities of Vale, break into someone else's property to try to steal the Elemental Stars, set off a trap which dang near kills Vale, assault locals, return years later and threaten a local famous scholar, then kidnap said scholar along with another local, then travel the globe with them (plus an unwilling pawn whose family they have hostage and an untrustworthy stranger), then cause as much damage as they can to everyone they meet along the way creating a trail of carnage a blind dying rat that's lost its sense of smell could follow as they go making enemies of literally everyone they meet, kidnap a Messiah figure, constantly backstab and threaten to get their way even with their own "allies", and just act with superiority complexes and violence all around. Then they act shocked that this very Chaotic Evil approach ultimately doesn't end well for them. Too stupid to live, indeed.
- In order:
- They did try to reason with Vale, as noted by several Proxians in The Lost Age. The Valeans didn't believe that Weyard was decaying and refused to allow Prox to break the seal, so the Proxian party turned to raiding Sol Sanctum.
- They attacked Isaac and Garet because the Valeans might have overheard them talking about the raid. Also, they were pissed that the raid failed.
- On that note, Saturos and Menardi were the sole survivors of the incident.
- They never explicitly threatened Kraden. They pressured him, and he was intimidated, but he wasn't under threat.
- Their kidnap of Kraden and Jenna was a spur-of-the-moment thing, given that Aleph was erupting. It's explicitly said that they needed to take hostages so that, if Isaac and Garet survive the eruption, they would pursue the squad with the Mars Star. Jenna probably went along more willingly after learning about her parents, and Kraden was driven by his theory (note that they had no animosity towards Alex or the Proxians' quest - only towards Saturos and Menardi).
- They took Felix along because they needed a Venus Adept to get into the Venus Lighthouse. Likewise, they brought Alex because they needed a Mercury Adept to get into the Mercury Lighthouse.
- As far as I'm aware, they only made enemies of Isaac's crew and the people of Lalivero. Other NPCs have occasionally described the gang as scary or powerful, but most NPCs didn't find them interesting.
- The "trail of carnage" consists of: A tree-person, who Saturos probably knocked over because he was still spiteful about getting thrashed by Isaac; Hsu, who was an indirect victim, since the landslide was probably meant to impede Isaac's team; the guards of Lalivero, who weren't happy to see Sheba taken hostage
- They kidnapped Sheba because they needed a Jupiter Adept to enter Jupiter Lighthouse, as well as for use as a hostage to get through Lalivero more easily.
- They never backstabbed anybody on their team. They did threaten Felix at Venus Lighthouse, but only because Felix was showing signs of rebellion.
- Saturos was Prox's greatest warrior, so he probably had some reason to feel superior. Aside from conflicts at the lighthouses, violence was never their first resort until they were challenged by Lalivero's soldiers.
- Yeah, tried to reason with Vale, I'm sure. Somehow I don't see Saturos and Menardi actually trying to civilly negotiate with anyone. Actually, they didn't need to take hostages. Given that they had the Elemental Stars, that alone would have been enough for Isaac and Garet to follow so it was an unnecessary action. You cannot justify anything they did. They did leave a trail of carnage in their wake, and Saturos still nearly almost killed that girl and that guy. Violence was never their first answer? Oh yes it was! Everytime they were present they were threatening harm to others and lied and backstabbed. Saturos outright lied to Isaac several times and used loopholes around his promises. Both of them were Chaotic Evil.
- As mentioned, they were the only survivors of the original team that attempted to breach Sol Sanctum. It's possible that one or more of the team were better negotiators and diplomats than S & M; at least before they bought the farm because they weren't great fighters. Perhaps they weren't even the leaders of that group to begin with.
- About the hostages thing... if you're talking about Felix and family, they likely saved them from the river and took them back to Prox where they were healed; and if you're talking about Jenna and Kraden, well... they did ask Felix if he'd rather they left them in the crater of an erupting volcano. They also state that they'll take Kraden along because he has valuable knowledge, and they probably thought they could use Jenna to later trade for the Mars Star + keep Felix in check.
- Chaotic Neutral at worst. Once again in order: whether or not you see them actually trying to civilly negotiate is irrelevant, because it was said that they did. Every time they were present on screen, when they were speaking to their antagonists that were actively trying to stop them, they were being threatening and violent, which makes sense. We don't know what how they interacted with each other and other people when they were traveling on their own — and it is true, the worst they did to other people was the girl in the river and Hsu, neither of which are really Moral Event Horizons. And everything they did, they did for the sake of Prox — which doesn't justify a lot of their violent actions such as beating up two teenagers, the girl and Hsu, and kidnapping Sheba, but it does provide them with a sympathetic motive. No one's trying to say they're not villains, but while they are clearly antagonists, they're not really evil either. Try Well-Intentioned Extremist.
- Values Dissonance also plays a role. If Agatio is anything to by, Proxian warriors are very imperialistic. The guy wanted to Take Over the World. It can be assumed that Saturos and Menardi have similar mindsets.
- It's also possible, since the attempted negotiations with Vale happened before the events of the prologue, that Saturos and Menardi were not specifically the ones doing the negotiations— their diplomat was one of those killed in the failed attack on Sol Sanctum in the prologue, after negotiations failed.
- In the desert, why couldn't Mia, who is shown to be able to summon ice at will, just cool the party off? They never said the oasis were magic, so why couldn't she just summon ice to remove the heat?
- Not enough MP.
- You get PP by walking. That's not a valid justification.
- Mercury is weak against fire. If anything, Mia would be MORE in danger than anyone else in the party. Also, Mia doesn't summon ice nor does she create water. She needs water, in either a form of a puddle or in water vapor, to do anything significant. Since they is low water pressure in the desert, there wouldn't be enough water in the air to hydrate the party, let alone cool them down. As for being able to still use spells effectively in combat, it's either Gameplay and Story Segregation or she's carrying water reserved specifically for her spells. If the latter case is true, using it to cool the party down would be foolish as it would leave her defenseless against the endless stream of monsters prowling around. Alternatively, she may not be able to get enough PP fast enough to constantly cast spells. In the desert, you are already going to be under a lot of physical stress. Adding a huge heaping amount of mental stress from using ki to constantly cool down the party would probably be the death of her especially when there's a perfectly good oasis right over there that Ivan can find with minimal effort.
Golden Sun: The Lost Age
- Why can't you solve Yallam's problem about the swamp drying up? During the first game, the characters walk around saving people from turning into trees, clearing mountain passes and what not, why is it that here, no explanation is given as to why the swamp dried up?
- It's sometimes suspected that the swamp is a leftover of some cut content, since it's so long considering the end reward.
- Nobody cares about Yallam, not even the creators themselves.
- This conversation in Contigo;
Isaac(to Felix): Why did you wait so long to tell me? I would have helped you...Kraden: You wouldn't have done it before, Isaac... It would have meant violating the sacred teachings of Vale.
Kraden: Felix betrayed his hometown, Vale... That's why he hasn't been able to face Isaac. Felix had hoped to play the villain alone, without getting Jenna or me involved...
- While this would imply Isaac is not destined to save the world unless he's aiding Felix, Kraden screwed over by saying this earlier on;
- which basically means Felix has already did the same thing as what Isaac is not supposed to do. This raises another question of why did Felix did not bother explaining his motives to Isaac after the latter killed Saturos & Menardi at the first place.
- Where the hell is Golden Sun DS going to take place? You've already been everywhere in all Weyard!
- Did you get Golden Sun 2 in its complete form, as in, with the little map of Weyard? Take a good look—there are clouds all around it. Weyard could very easily be a very, very tall mountain over the clouds of a bigger world. The fact that you have a flying ship makes the fact that we'll be traveling down even more plausible...though, I admit, it doesn't confirm anything.
- Not to mention the Golden Sun I+ II world is pretty damn big. Given a few decades, there's plenty of time for things to have changed drastically all over.
- Weyard is a Ring world. You'll notice that parts of northern Angra and parts of Tundaria are both obscured in clouds, but do not end in Gaia falls.
- Instead, they end in the world eroding into a void. You see this at the Mars Lighthouse (and it's actually a plot point that you have to relight the beacon quickly or else the lighthouse will fall over the edge)
- Weyard is like a coin, with a different world on each side.
- Apparently, the next game will feature the Golden Sun characters' descendants, and given The Legend of Zelda's take on shifting landmasses over time...
- The continents might even start growing back to the way they were on that map in Lemuria.
- Teasers for Dark Dawn pretty much confirm this, saying that new lands and countries have arisen since the original games.
- And maybe, just maybe, they'll finally resolve that Moon/Anemos city/where Sheba came from subplot.
- There's a line of Mind Read dialogue at the end of GS2 which you can only get if you cheat (since you wouldn't normally have Mind Read accessible at that point). I paraphrase heavily, but in it, one of the Proxians refers to the storms at the northern rift clearing up, allowing them to see the "other side."
- Alex at the very end. Did he just... forget he could warp, or something ? Okay, maybe he's got a Power Limiter like, he can only warp somewhere he's already been, but he could definitely flee the crumbling mountain, especially when''he's got about 90%-limitless power. Why can't he warp anymore??!
- We don't know how that power is quantified. More likely than not, without 100% of the power of Alchemy, the Wise One can still negate your power and trap you on a mountain.
- I got the impression that he was too badly wounded from the Wise Man's attack to warp.
- He's just been shown playing around with his shiny new powers a lot. He drained himself out of PP. (Thank you, other Troper who mentioned PP earlier on this page.)
Mt. Aleph crater
- Mt. Aleph is a volcano, right? So why doesn't it have a crater? Alex was most definitely standing on a peak during the credits.
- Erosion doesn't happen evenly; there might have been a spire or something for Alex to stand on, overlooking the crater.
Healing Karst and Agatio
- In Jupiter Lighthouse, why did Alex heal Karst and Agatio? He knows that Felix and co. are the only ones who can solve the lighthouse puzzles, and the recent boss fight clearly proves that K&A aren't powerful enough to strong-arm the party to finish restoring Alchemy, which they already have more than enough reason to keep doing (parents hostage, world dying, etc). Since he has no goal keeping K&A alive serves, the best explanation I can think of is to take him at face value (that he's doing it so that the Proxians won't hurt the families held hostage) but if so they really should have made that clearer; the only I see to support it is that he seems to care about Mia if you mind read him, but given that he's otherwise manipulative, callous, and power-hungry, this humane side of him begs to be investigated. Is there another explanation for his behavior, and if not, why did Camelot ignore an interesting opportunity for exploring Alex's conflicting desires?
- One guess is that because Felix and co wouldn't have finished off Karst and Agatio and that in turn Karst and Agatio would not stop. Healing them and letting them go running off towards Prox ensures the two teams don't kill each other. And where does it say he knew they wouldn't be able to activate Mars Lighthouse? (Personally I think Mars Lighthouse being a final exam dungeon is either gameplay story segregation or The Wise One rearranged things for his "test". On that note the reason Karst and Agatio failed was because The Wise One was working against them not because of the puzzles and Alex clearly had no knowledge of the Wise One's involvement given the ending.)
Felix and the Jupiter Stone
- Why does Felix have the Jupiter Star from the outset of the game? Saturos clearly didn't trust Felix so why give him the super important artifact that was necessary for their entire quest to succeed? For better or for worse he seemed to trust Alex. I understand how he might be cautious and only want to bring the right star to the top of the tower especially when predicting a fight (he admitted he left the stars with Menardai at Mercury Lighthouse) but why hand it over to the member of their party that is actively being black mailed and showing signs of rebelling? Thins would have made much more sense if Alex had the Jupiter Star and gave it to Felix and co in Champa when he pressures them half way through the game.
- Maybe Alex said something like, "Hey guys, you should really give that there Jupiter Star to Felix, even if he turns against us I can still make him do whatever I want."
- Is Dullahan Jupiter or Venus aligned? If it's the former, that explains most of his physical attacks but then he is also weak to Jupiter (Jupiter and Venus are supposed to be super effective against each other). If it's the latter that explains the Charon summon and several death curses he has access to but why is Call Dullahan Jupiter-aligned?
The Interregnum between The Lost Age and Dark Dawn
Isaac naming his son
- Why does someone who has had a deity (possibly capital G) try to kill them and their father name their child "Gift from God"?
- Because Matthew is the best name ever and this troper named Matthew is most definitely not biased in saying so! In all seriousness, remember Kraden's talk with Isaac and Felix at the end of TLA? He surmised that more than anything else, the Wise One wanted to test Isaac and co. It's possible he may have forgiven the Wise One for that and seen the, pardon the pun, wisdom in his choices. Either that, or "Matthew" just means something different in Weyard.
- I'm holding out for it being a Meaningful Name: remember, Isaac was given a portion of the Mars star power from the Wise One himself. I'm betting that this new kid will probably have inherited some of his (great grand?)father's gift.
- The Wise One never actually tried to kill Isaac. It was a Secret Test of Character. Also, the Wise One isn't a god, but rather a living Philosopher's Stone. Yeah.
- The former doesn't make sense at all.
- Not even all the stuff about character-testing.
- Or because it's not intended as a Meaningful Name. After all, "Isaac" means "he who laughs", and we don't really see Isaac laugh a lot.
- Maybe Jenna named Matthew.
- Why are there only three characters on the promotional art ? This has been bugging me for a year.
- (Of course, if they're children of the heroes of the first two games, it helps to remember that even if you're a Yaoi Fangirl and have no problem making 4 couples out of the 8 protagonists... there's still only 3 girls. But come on, people can have more than one child!)
- Screenshots seem to indicate that there will be at least one Guest Star Party Member along the way, maybe more, and the fourth permanent member could be someone completely unrelated to the original heroes.
- Which means he doesn't get to be in promo art ? That's mean, Camelot.
- It wouldn't be the first time. How long did we know about Felix, Jenna, and Sheba before Piers was finally revealed? (Although he was on all the TLA official art.)
- In theory, couldn't Piers BE the fourth character for the new game? He's Lemurian, and even if he was banished, I'm sure the king would revoke that. He's probably still the same as he was in Lost Age. It would make sense to have someone along who saved the world last time, as a mentor or whatever, without it being one of their parents.
- But that would give us three warrior-style adepts and one mage-style adept. Unless Dark Dawn has a total of eight playable party members, that seems very unlikely. Especially since there's a screenshot showing the HP values of a fourth character named Crown,
who, based on HP values and the elements of the other three characters, would appear to be a water adept with Ivan and Jenna's fighting style.
- Crown has officially appeared in gameplay and appears to fight just like Mia.
- They didn't even use the same design for Tyrell later, so my guess is they were still working on character designs when that promo art was released.
- Why would it take so long for the problems with the release of psynergy take 20-30 years to pop up rather than be a more immediate effect like the Proxians make it sound?
- Because Weyard was kinda dying at the time, if you'll recall. Evidently it took 20-30 years for it to be satiated, at which point overflow finally started and there was enough excess psyenergy for problems to start. For the interim period, most of the energy was feeding the planet and repairing the lost and damaged land.
- Okay, I have one question...are the names associated with the elements from something like Taoist beliefs and mythology?
- Yes, though some tweeks had to be made with the planetary associations in the change from the east's five element system to the west's four element system.
- So that's why Mercury of all planets is associated with water!
Doom Dragon replica
- You know that Doom Dragon replica on the training ground? That thing was probably the single most traumatic memory for the original cast. Why on earth would they want to be reminded of it?
- Well, the parents all lived. That would certainly help in dealing with the trauma. Combination of that and the passage of time contribute to them being able to laugh at it.
- I think the parents that ended up being hacked, burned, water, frozen, tornadoed, and earth-quaked by the kids would find it more traumatic. Isaac: (laughing) "Hey, dad, remember that time we beat the living hell out of you and Jenna and Felix's parents?" Isaac's Dad: (twitching) Yes.
- Who's to say the original cast created the Psynergy Training Ground? I saw that thing as a less-than-accurate retelling made by fans who didn't quite understand the original story, with less emphasis on "the dragon was their parents" and more emphasis on "and then they FOUGHT A FRICKIN THREE-HEADED DRAGON". They also have the Fire Clan as bad guys, which also wasn't really the case, and I certainly don't remember the Kraken being an all-important plot-defining event.
- The fact that it's never said that the original cast made it pretty much confirms that, especially since the area near where the ground is located has a lot of Isaac & co. fans. Also, bear in mind that the training ground was made for young Adepts. Telling the whole truth at such an early stage in their development would probably not have encouraged them to use their powers: they'd probably be spooked into never using them out of fear that something similar could happen to them.
- It is, literally, The Theme Park Version. And one of defining characteristics of that trope is...?
- Where the hell was Ayuthay when Felix & Co. were exploring the world during The Lost Age? Their main city claims to be old enough to trace their stonecrafting tradition to the Precursors, is located on a flat area along the coast a stone's throw from Champa... Where the hell was it during the first two games? Shouldn't we have visited it at some point? This wouldn't bug me nearly so much except that it's a plot-important location, and nobody even tries to explain its presence!
- Word of God is that is was on the outskirts of the Lamakan Desert (and when you first visit Ayuthay the surrounding land is indeed arid). Given how the desert had unbearable heat and was considered evil, it was probably little more than a small settlement at the time that was cut off from the rest of the world.
- Fridge Brilliance: So that's why they have the Sand Prince stone!
Tret the tree
- The surprise that Tret is a tree. I recall it being part of the adept training grounds, one of the few things it gets right.
- But they never say in the training ground that it's Tret, or even that that part represents Kolima Forest. This Troper found it very funny how it was purposely not mentioned so as to freak out newcomers to the series as much as the characters.
- They do mention it's Tret in the training grounds. One of the signs you can read for prompting specifically says to burn away Tret's anger so his nice side will show again, or something like that.
- Why do the playable characters have a different pattern of elemental relationships than NPCs? I will mention four examples with Resistance values in brackets. (i) Djinn Dew who uses Mercury attacks (193 Mercury, 100/100 Venus/Jupiter, 25 Mars) (ii) Saturos who uses Mars attacks (175 Mars, 127 Venus, 100 Jupiter, 72 Mercury) (iii) Mercury adept (e.g. Mia) base stats (114 Mercury, 88 Venus, 87 Mars, 86 Jupiter) (iv) Fusion Dragon (consisting of 2x Venus and 1x Mars adept) (195 Venus, 175 Mars, 130 Mercury, 98 Jupiter). This shows (i) and (iv) use the same pattern but the rest are different. I would expect (ii) to be the logical pattern, with Resistance values from highest to lowest as: innate > symbiotic > neutral > weak.