This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
- Roy and Riza from Fullmetal Alchemist are fiercely dedicated to each other and their cause, sharing an angsty backstory and knowing each other for years. This has lead a lot of fans to consider them a canon couple, despite the fact they always refer to each via their military rank even when one thinks the other is dead/dying and Riza lied about them being a couple to trick Envy, when he was impersonating Roy. There are also a number of scenes that can be interpreted either way, which means fanon is split between considering them being in love or just two dedicated comrades.
Not sure if this is a real example, since nothing confirms it either way.
Blunderbuss: I'm the one who put it in, and I think it does. Nothing is 100% confirmed yet, true, but there are many different interpretations of their relationship. Arakawa did break away from a concept by making two dedicated comrades male and female, which has lead some to think they must be together. Not to mention others who do think it's confirmed because of their scanlations. Even when Arakawa confirms what it is (which shouldn't be far off, as the manga is reaching the endgame), it still means that many people came off with the wrong idea.
Taelor: The point is, though, that we can't know whether it's a fumble or not as it's never been addressed. I say we wait until something confirms it either way.
Blunderbuss: Fair enough. *yoinks it*
"Kubo Tite, creator of Bleach came out and said that Ichigo and Rukia's relationship, as it stands, is very, very close but not romantic. The anime inserted original pro- Ichigo/Rukia Ship Tease upon ship tease, which means that, if Ichigo does gets with Orihime instead, there are going to be some angry, angry fans out there. "
Just wanna make a remark. Am I the only person on the internet who thinks it can be juvenile to be that emotionally invested in who ends up with who in fiction given the fickle nature of artists, where realistically there can't be any guarantees with what they're going to do. (not to mention the horribly blatant disregard for artistic honesty and self expression in the mentality that "my ship must happen because it's more popular/the fans are so in love with it")
Barano: No, you're not. But try telling this to the hosts of rabid fans for whom this is a matter of life and death. Especially in this fandom and especially when it comes to who Ichigo will end up with.
It's just really, really annoying. I love this place, but the only thing that seriously bothers me is how common it is for Ship-to-Ship Combat to spread all over the wiki. It's like the shippers don't even care that the rest of us might rather not see these fights and negativity plastered all over what's supposed to be just for fun. And it bothers me how so few people are willing to tell them to cut it out and start thinking about other people's feelings for a change.
- Aang and Katara sometimes had this as well. The writers apparently couldn't agree on what degree she reciprocated his feelings at certain points in the series. Fuuuuuuuuuuumble!!!
- Fumble, or good writing? Considering the age group the show was working with, even more with Katara being two years older then Aang, being confused about their feelings comes out rather naturally.
- Not what everyone saw; to some, the relationship's development made little emotional sense and doesn't really have coherant development. It depends on how much credit you're willing to give the writers.
- Aang and Katara sometimes had this as well. The writers apparently couldn't agree on what degree she reciprocated his feelings at certain points in the series. Fuuuuuuuuuuumble!!!
Snipping. This really more of a case of "fans who don't agree on how good the show's writing actually is." Yeah, This Troper agrees the show's relationship writing is of questionable quality, but this doesn't really belong here.
Working Title: Relationship Writing Fumble: From YKTTW
Krid: Rei is just Shinji's half-sister. When you combine two (Or more) sets of genes to form a new one, the first two sets are the parents and the third is the child. Since Rei is the product of DNA from Shinji's mother mixed with EVA DNA, that makes her the child of Shinji's mother, hence they are half-siblings. Also, the gay rape in FF 7 came before Square acquired Enix. The merger changed policies.
Oh, and discussion goes here, please. ^^
- Nabi: No, she's not. Her DNA is cloned from Shinji's mother, Yui. The Angel part is her soul, which comes from Lilith, and in turn could be blamed for her pale hair and red eyes. (See Kaworu for example; he's the 17th Angel/has the soul of Adam.) I corrected the entry to reflect this.
Nobodymuch: The main reason why people went for the Harry/Hermione shipping is because he was the lead and she was the Mary Sue-flavoured only important female character. Usually the only important female doesn't end up with the comedy sidekick.
Lurkerbunny: I don't appreciate being insulted for being a Harry/Hermione shipper. And the reason I do ship Harry/Hermione is because Hermione is anything BUT a Mary Sue. She's a flawed, real character and if anything, Ginny is a Mary Sue. The fact that Hermione is a smart girl who studies hard and isn't concerned with her looks, that's why everyone's made she ended up with the comedy sidekick.
Rogue 7: Man, you're selling Ron short as the comedy sidekick. He's a hell of a lot more than that, but if you're so fixated on the Harry/Hermione ship, you probably missed it. But it's not an insult. All the evidence points to Ron and Hermione getting together. And I do mean all of it. From roughly halfway through book 5 onwards, even I (a clueless geek with no sense for these things) could see it. It's got nothing to do with the relative qualities of the characters, and everything to do with the simple logic of their interactions in-story.
Lurkerbunny: I removed the example. FYI, I do take things like this personally. I know I shouldn't, but I guess I have very weird Berserk Buttons But hey, what do I know, I'm not even a Potter fan... I just like Hermione and I feel sorry for the H/Hr shippers. I know I took it even more personally when I brought up the fact that all of Harry Potter just bugs me and someone called it "banal whining". I did not come here to be insulted for my opinions.
Rogue 7: No offense, but if Harry Potter bugs you, you probably shouldn't get into discussions about it. I'm a very casual shipper- I can't think of one instance where I care about a ship that isn't canon (Barring Shikamaru/Temari, but that's close enough. And seriously, that's the only ship I have more than a passing interest in.), so I like to think I'm fairly objective on these things. And don't get me wrong- I like Hermione fine, it's just that she's got a thing for redheads rather than green eyes is all.
- But the existence of the Zutara fandom, unfortunately, is definitely Mike and Bryan's own fault. Hell, the Tokka fandom too. Last This Troper checked, both pairings are more popular than their canon counterparts. Nothing will change the fact significant portions of the fandom weren't exactly captivated by the canon romance.
Lale: Some sources say otherwise. (Actually, American Dragon Jake Long is to thank for the existence of Zutara.)
Leone: I think the Eyeshield 21 example requires some sort of elaboration or explanation, because I (and fellow troper Pikabot) have no idea what it's supposed to mean. I have a feeling someone's ship is showing.
Lale: "The creators did mention that they shipped that pair at a convention once..." Would that be the Blue Spirit/Azula slide, or something else?
- While it was (painfully) obvious almost from the start that Aang had romantic feelings for Katara, her feelings on the matter rarely remained consistent, if they were addressed at all. Does she view herself as his friend? Mother? Sister? Does she reciprocate his feelings? It was however finally confirmed at the end of season three.
Lale: Not sure that's a fumble since it's traditional for the love interest to play a motherly or sisterly role as well. It's all in Campbell's The Hero With A Thousand Faces in the chapter on Love Interests, "Meeting With The Goddess."
Rogue 7: Does Naruto really count as a "fumble" as much as the author subverting expectations?
Red Viking: Let's just say that Kishimoto fumbled big time if he truly always intended for Hinata's feelings to be platonic. (Which there is actually an argument for)
PikaBot: ...you'll have to explain that one to me.
Rogue 7: Same here. But that's a big "if" right there, and nothing's really proven now.
Red Viking: You'll have to excuse me, I tend to be purposely vague when explaining pairings because I have no desire to initiate pairing wars. Anyway, anyone who reads/watches Naruto would naturally arrive at the conclusion that Hinata has a huge crush on Naruto. However, there's a databook out there written by Kishimoto with a pretty detailed flowchart of all the relationships in the series. Said flowchart also insinuates that Hinata's feelings for Naruto are actually platonic admiration because it lacks a heart, which the flowchart uses to show who is in love with who.
Rogue 7: I'd have to see that to believe it.
PikaBot: Same here, although given Kishimoto's track record where not failing is concerned...it wouldn't surprise me.
Red Viking: Oh, I perfectly understand. This is something that actually needs notability imo. I'll post a link as soon as my thread hunting is over.
Red Viking: Well, looks like I can't find it. Feel free to do whatever you want with the Naruto entry.
Lale: I don't watch Naruto, but if Word of God contradicts what the material implies, it's a writing fumble...
UNLESS the fans are arbitrarily bringing their idea of pre-established relationship writing rules to the story, a la Harry/Hermione (The Hero and the third amigo of the opposite gender MUST fall in love) or Katara/Zuko (Opposites Attract ALWAYS).
Charred Knight: Kishimoto's problem is simply that he got way too attached to Sasuke, so relationship was completely put off. Not counting filler, how many lines has Hinata had in part 2? 10? She's had one joke about her, and stated that the Battle Butler had injected himself with Orochimaru's genes. Hell Sakura has barely got screen time recently and she's the main female, and Naruto's main love interest. I don't consider a Relationship Writing Fumble, I consider it a Writing Fumble, he screwed up Naruto and everything has gotten worse because of it. We have no relationships with anyone, and he did such a good job with Naruto and Sakura's blossoming love, he didn't do anything with the World Building except that which the Uchiha have to do with. The Sasuke vs Itachi fight sucked, and the last great fight was Shikamaru vs the immortal guy.
Rogue 7: CK got it right, though Jiraya's fight was spectacular.
Rampulus: Naruto's telling Sai that he can't even tell Sakura how he feels as long as he hasn't fulfilled his promise to Sasuke helps shed light on why things haven't moved forward with him and Sakura (and explains why he hasn't said anything to Hinata). It also wouldn't make sense for Sakura to fall in love with Naruto without first resolving her feelings for Sasuke, so these, among others, are considerable obstacles that need to be overcome before romance can move forward. It should also be noted that the databook in question was based on the material up to Chapter 400 or so, and Hinata's confession took place in 437.
Lale: Several of these fumbles seems to be on the part of the viewer more than the writer. Should this be something like Relationship Interpretation Fumble?
Red Viking: Actually I think there's already a trope for that. I cannot for the life of me remember what it's called, but it definitely reading into something that just isn't there.
Red Viking: Lol! No, it isn't shipping, though there's an argument for that. It's something else.
Charred Knight: I agree with Lale, Sakura and Naruto's relationship was based on the underdog Naruto overcoming The Ace Sasuke, and getting the girl of his dreams, not settling for the second place Hinata. This has more to do with the misunderstanding of the American audience thinking that Hinata was supposed to be Naruto's Canon Girlfriend when she was actually just a minor character than Kishimoto screwing up.
PikaBot: ...that's some nice putting words into Lale's mouth, there.
Charred Knight: No I didn't, I just said that I agree with Lale, and gave an example showing why I agree with Lale.
Lale: I got it.
Danel: I definitely agree, though maybe somewhat late, that the name of this should be changed. I'll start at the bottom.
PikaBot: To whoever's endlessly devoted to that Eyeshield section: Either change it so it makes sense with your Ship-O-Vision off, or let it go.
PikaBot: OK, that's an improvement. I'm still not certain about it, though. From my reading of the text, anyways, it seems all the Ship Tease moments took place after the Bando game, when Sena dropped the secret identity. After that point, Mamori was acting (somewhat) less maternal towards him, bcause she could see that he didn't need her as surrogate mom anymore.
The added section about Sena and Suzuna is accurate, but but rather beside the point here. As I understand this trope, it relates to when the writers wanted a character dynamic to go one way, and then wrote it a completely different way. What's being described isn't confusion between dynamics, it's just under-developing of a romantic subplot.
- "Eying each other"? Where and when? This troper saw no such occurrences.
Lale: Conversation In The Main Page. Might belong in It Just Bugs Me!.
Charred Knight: Deleted, this is a joke on the fact that Shugo finds Rena's avatar sexually attractive. Theirs a scene where the Upper-Class Twit wishes for Rena's socks causing Shugo to imagine Rena naked except for socks.
- The tension between Rena and Shugo in .hack//Legend of the Twilight, at least the anime, resembles a Ship Tease a bit too much for siblings.
- In the manga, it's really just a minor Bodyguard Crush, if anything. Frankly, he got more innuendo with Ouka than his sister most of the time.
Danel: As brought up earlier, I agree that the name of this trope should be changed. As a number of misunderstandings have shown, sometimes fandom can get completely the wrong end of the stick. I really do think that a fair few of these examples are Trope Overdosed folk misinterpreting, say, Sibling Rivalry as Slap-Slap-Kiss, or whatever.
Lale: Wrong trope. Good exmaple of how Shipping works, though:
- A relationship writing fumble could also be an explanation for Zutara's outrageous popularity, at least for a couple of characters that barely even talk to one another throughout the show. Let's face it, for all intents and purposes, along with the attempted ship sinkings, they can still give off very confusing signals to uninitiated audience members who don't have the inside notice online fans do. Even this troper's older sister and mom, who are usually spot-on when it comes to romance in real life and in fiction, thought they were going to eventually become an official couple.
Writing style isn't responsible for "characters that barely even talk to one another" being shipped together. There's confusing signals... and then there's no signals. It wasn't the writing that made viewers think they would get together; it was the just the ship itself that made viewers think they should get together. Hence the never-ending quests for Subtext, which in this case comes from the viewers, not the writers.
Lale: Cut The Lion King example. A Brother–Sister Incest Relationship Writing Fumble means the interaction between a brother and sister unintentionally looks too romantic - or, theoretically, a romantic relationship unintentionally looks too familial. The romance in The Lion King is intentional; the question is whether or not it is incestuous (furthermore, by human or lion standards), which is Fridge Logic. Wrong trope.
Rogue 7: You know, not that I particularly mind in the slightest, as I ship them as well, but I've noticed that we've got quite a few Shikamaru/Temari shippers on here. And it is with regret that I must cut some of the natter in their entry.
- There was arguably never anything between Shikamaru and Ino anyway, apart from being teammates of opposite gender. But based on Kishimoto's habit of writing characters with living parents as basically clones of these parents, the fact that Temari's personality resembles that of Shikamaru's mother (who is happily married to Shikamaru's henpecked but basically content father) makes a lot of sense. A post-episode omake in the Shippuuden anime very specifically stating that there's nothing between the two of them was quite irritating to a lot of people.
- Later, the Shippuuden anime made another post-episode omake which showed Temari as part of Shikamaru's own fictitious Shippuuden series. Clearly showing there is something between them and linking them as a couple. They like to tease fans, don't they?
- There was arguably never anything between Shikamaru and Ino anyway, apart from being teammates of opposite gender. But based on Kishimoto's habit of writing characters with living parents as basically clones of these parents, the fact that Temari's personality resembles that of Shikamaru's mother (who is happily married to Shikamaru's henpecked but basically content father) makes a lot of sense. A post-episode omake in the Shippuuden anime very specifically stating that there's nothing between the two of them was quite irritating to a lot of people.
Danel: Looking at this again, it's noticeable that perhaps 90% of this just plain comes down to fans seeing any sort of close relationship as potentially romantic. I can't help but feel that that's more what the trope seems to be about than the title suggests.
Charred Knight: I think this has more to do with a bunch of people on the wrong side of the ship sinking, and blames the author. An example is that Naruto and Sakura where implied from the start, but the page claims that EVERYONE clearly shipped Hinata, when I know that to be false since I always shipped Naruto and Sakura.
Tanto: I'll take a look at it when I've got a free moment. I don't give a flying fuck about shipping (in anything), so I can be extra merciless in cutting examples if need be.
Later: All right. Axed all natter and personal examples. Softened the entry somewhat — this is as much a fan problem as a writer problem. For posterity/debate, here are my big cuts:
- Naruto: As someone who's seen every episode and read every manga chapter, I think I can safely say that there are no canon romantic relationships in this series yet, besides maybe Shikamaru/Temari. The characters sometimes had crushes, but they were twelve at the time and have mostly given these up since the timeskip. Whining about Kishimoto screwing it up strikes me as mostly being sour grapes for not explicitly supporting your ship.
- Kingdom Hearts: Anyone who potholes Justifying Edit onto their Justifying Edit should be shot. Justifying Edits are bad. They are either made unintentionally or stupidly.
- Mario: I don't say this very often, but if you're looking for serious character development or even continuity in the Mario games, you are officially doing it wrong.
- Baldurs Gate: Just a fan-preferred pairing.
- Little Women: Appears to be just a vague line, and a troper's interpretation of it.
I'm not entirely sure this is worthwhile, honestly. It is very subjective, perhaps too subjective to have any real value.
Austin: What about Tai, Sora and Mat from Digimon. From what I know about the first series (which is little), the chemistry was mostly between Tai and Sora, but Sora ended up with Mat in the sequel series. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- That was completely intentional. The writers were messing with us, and demolishing the idea of a Toy Ship in the process.
Does the Animaniacs entry honestly belong here? Yeah, Subjective Trope and all that, but c'mon, fantasies by people who don't actually have a younger sister, anyone?
macroscopic: I agree, it's a stretch. Also, Wakko was reacting to the mention of their parents not Yakko showing Dot affection, he looks sad there.
For those curious:
- Animaniacs started playing with this toward the end of its run. Yakko kissed Dot on the cheek in one song in "Hooray for North Hollywood" — a form of affection he's never really used before. And then there's this scene in Wakko's Wish, where Yakko and Dot are cuddly enough to make you wonder if someone at WBA is a Yakko/Dot shipper... and Wakko's reaction to them being affectionate is priceless.
lee4hmz: That was my doing, unfortunately. I first added that when I was still relatively new to the site, and even then I knew it was probably just the Shipping Goggles talking. *
The Live TV item regarding Sarah Conner Chronicle may want to note that Lena Headey (Sarah) is a mere 14 years older than Thomas Dekker (John) and refer to whatever casting trope I can't find right now about the inability of actresses to find work or roles for their own ages. The flipside of this being, of course, if the TV ages are right, then Sarah should have been 13 in the 1984 film.... ~~~~
Deleted the Zelda example. The "Twilight Princess" part seemed like a Link/Midna shipper's soapbox, and the Ocarina of Time one was just ridiculous. 4 other women better than Zelda for Link including Nabooru? OK, if Link went with Nabooru, it's pedophilia on her part. If he went with Saria, it's pedophilia on his part. And it's PAINFULLY obvious that he does not requite Ruto's "love". Really, only Malon's a contender here.
Adelle Pleven: A Link+Zelda example deserves to be here, in some form. I agree that there are a myriad of practical reasons for disregarding the relationships mentioned, but there's room for disagreement. (I personally agree with you about Malon.) The number of possible alternative relationships in Ocarina Of Time just happens to illustrate how Link+Zelda has either been fumbled or downplayed intentionally. I suggest restoring the entry and editing it to taste.
Adelle Pleven: Could we have a proper discussion before deleting the Lo Z example again? I'm not convinced that Link's Heroic Mime status negates the possibility of a relationship fumble. I also removed anything that might suggest a shipping preference, and I'm not the one who wrote the original entry either.
