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ablackraptor Since: Dec, 2010

Oct 19th 2019 at 2:18:50 AM •••

Ron the Death Eater keeps getting deleted here, the latest attempt at which inserted a Draco in Leather Pants entry in its place.

The common argument is that Janet "manipulated" Hank into marriage and was emotionally abusive towards him, leading to him smacking her in retaliation, only for him to wrongly be blamed as the abusive party. That is not at all what happened.

I've wrote this all down previously in a Tumblr post (here: https://ablackraptor.tumblr.com/post/179733415191/super-hero-confessions-i-hated-jans-speech) as a rebuttal to someone making this argument before. But the key points:

Before Yellow Jacket, Hank is terrible to Janet. He's constantly verbally abusive towards her.
Avengers #59, Hank debuts Yellow Jacket, attacks the Avengers, targets Janet, and kidnaps her. He forces himself on her while she struggles to fight him off, then lets her go. She tells the Avengers she's going to marry him.
Avengers #60, Serpent Society attack their wedding, and Hank reveals himself. He explains that he had a lab accident, causing the start of a manic episode, where he decided that because 'Goliath' wouldn't marry Janet, he'll abandon Goliath for a new identity. He's lucid now though, and happily embraces Janet.
Next 155 issues, Hank repeatedly bullies and belittles Janet, until the court-martial for an unrelated misdeed leads him to build a robot only he can stop. Janet tries to stop him, but then he slaps her and forces her to go along with it. The plan fails, after which Hank realises what he's done and then feels remorse.
At no point does Janet manipulate Hank's mental state. He's the one to initiate everything, and she basically just goes with the flow. You can maybe argue she should have recognised he was not himself and said no, but she was given very little consent during their relationship (again, he kidnapped and forced himself on her as a proposal).
Given how she was already use to him belittling her before that, her accepting his proposal under this state reads more like an abused partner putting up with obvious red flags because she loves him and wants to be with him. She's not manipulating him, she's going along with his dangerous behaviour.
Janet is by no means a perfect victim. She flirted with other men explicitly to annoy him, and would sometimes pester him while he was working. That is not equal behaviour. Even at her worst, she disrespected him, but he treated her far worse even before we got to him escalating to physical abusive.

I'm going to restore RTDE, but this is just for reference.

Edited by ablackraptor Hide / Show Replies

Tyjohnson616 Since: Dec, 2014

Nov 27th 2020 at 1:54:45 PM •••

Couldn't help but notice you left out this panel where she says it's her choice to marry YELLOWAJCKET in 59, not hank But YELLOWJACKET, who at that point everyone including he believes KILLED HANK: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-4699238

ablackraptor Since: Dec, 2010

Feb 5th 2021 at 7:56:54 PM •••

1) That's Avengers #60, actually. #59 ends with her declaring she's marrying him. I just double-checked my copy of #60 to confirm.

2) Janet already knew it was really Hank. She says that she suspected, but was confirmed when he kissed her, which was in #59, when he, I repeat, choked her out, kidnapped her, and forced himself on her. Both were included in the Tumblr post.

3) It's also explained at the end that Yellow Jacket knew he was Hank. The 'origin' of Yellow Jacket is shown and he's shown being aware he's Hank, but having decided to abandon that identity because of his perceived weaknesses. This isn't an accurate depiction of how manic episodes or psychotic breaks work, but the writers clearly didn't know mental illness very well.

4) I didn't 'leave out' that panel because it doesn't matter. There's several pages just like that where Janet snaps at people trying to stop her marrying Yellow Jacket or questioning her decision. This is a common thing that happens with women who get with abusive partners, they get defensive and hostile when people question their choices. This isn't Janet being some conniving manipulator, this is Janet acting exactly how many women (and men) act when they're so intoxicated by a partner they refuse to see the red flags.

5) All that aside, still doesn't change the fact what she did wasn't even close to abusive.

Tyjohnson616 Since: Dec, 2014

Mar 16th 2021 at 9:50:27 AM •••

2. Notice she doesn't seem to give anyone the heads up and seems to go along with the deluison without even telling anyone "Hey Hank isn't even dead, he just thinks he's someone else". Even if you go with your assertion(edit: I say your assertion as I don't believe the writers intentions were meaning for the relationship to come off as this twisted romance when the issue of Avengers #60 was written, but with retrospect and time it comes off as such to you) of both characters' mental state, why wouldn't she literally just go "He's hank, just having a moment."

3.Actually the comic itself says "Turned me into a man, in many ways the opposite of Hank pym" meaning even he recongize the personality wasn't him and the man he wasn't at that moment was. Yeah it's not realistic because it's brought on by chemicals that don't exist and did something to make him believe he was an entirely different person. the closest in real life would be a dissociative episode under D.I.D where the person truly doesn't remember who they are until after and even then sometimes have gaps after they come back to themselves. Hulk is the more extreme version of that the personas of Hulk and Bruce banner all act as their own separate person with their own taste, likes and dislikes with a shared core. Until the moment he freaked out at the wedding, that man truly believed he was a guy named Yellow jacket that killed Hank Pym and if he didn't have that moment he'd possibly still believe he was the guy who killed Hank Pym.

4. This is a different type of thing than that, this was her actively leaning into the choice to marry him, knowing he was under the delusion of being another person especially, since she then bad mouths Hank's personality as being too cowardly compared to YJ's. She was willing to live with this man regardless of if he ever remembered PERIOD.

5. Not my point, my point was she is the one who was seemingly okay with the marriage in to a man who believes he killed another and is aware fully he's just her "ex" having a breakdown. She even says it's for her happiness. It's not RTDE but it's a messed up version of Masochism Tango if I've ever seen it.

Edited by Tyjohnson616


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