I'd agree with that, or keep What An Idiot and put the second example under Both Sides Have a Point with a new summary of Dany's side to prevent a Conversation On The Main Page?
I'd say that both Jon and Sansa deserve What An Idiot entries for this. Jon was hopelessly naive at best ("Okay, I know you're really butting heads with Dany but I hope you can keep this secret that hurts her for me, your brother. Btw I'm not your brother"). Hell, the best case scenario is "hey, this secret is tearing me apart inside. Imma share it with you and tell you not to act on it either" which is borderline cruel.
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In that case, they'll need a re-write. Right now they're arguing with each other.
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I agree with Larkman that both Jon and Sansa deserve a What An Idiot entry and Jon was pretty damn naive in his thinking (Sansa and Varys prove Dany's fears).
At the same time, I think Sansa and Arya have the right to know who Jon is because — at the very least — this concerns their family as it concerned Dany's family: Sansa, Arya, and Dany all were led to believe awful things about family members which aren't true (Rhaegar never raped Lyanna; Ned never cheated on Catelyn and in reality, spent his life protecting his sister's son) and the truth vindicates these family members. Plus, I think it's reasonable for Jon to trust his family, who have shown they love and are loyal to him.
At the same time, Dany was right, Sansa is not the sister Jon knew growing up and Sansa proved Dany's fears in her very next scene, which is perfect for What An Idiot.
I go back and forth on this ;) So I'd support a Both Sides Have a Point and What An Idiot entries.
Someone put the examples back without giving any edit reasons. Should I comment them out again? Or will that be an edit war?
Furthermore, I'm beginning to feel that most examples under What An Idiot are complaining. To the point:
- Tyrion telling Varys the truth about Jon for no apparent reason other than being drinking buddies, despite knowing Varys is sketchy and sly. In the books, Tyrion is good at keeping his cards close to his chest even when drunk, such as when baiting Young Griff. In the "Inside the Episode", D&D even say that Sansa knows when she tells Tyrion that it'll reach Varys, without an explanation for why Tyrion would be so lacking in guile. || If Tyrion is so adept at keeping his thoughts a secret, that means that he intentionally told Varys, possibly because he wants the Spider's advice.
- Tyrion and Varys seem to have no plan to offer Daenerys other than just starving Cersei out when they have Arya Stark, a trained Faceless Man assassin on their side. Arya's a hero for killing the Night King, and enough people know perfectly well what she's capable of. They have Ser Davos, a notoriously sneaky smuggler who has gotten into King's Landing more than once. How come nobody put two and two together and thought of sneaking Arya into the city to assassinate Cersei and Euron? The war would be over with two stabs. || Classic fanfiction-y I'd-have-done-this-instead shoehorn.
- Daenerys failed to pay attention to her surroundings and landed up getting almost getting killed when Drogon was swarmed by wights as a result. You'd think she'd learn from this, but she doesn't. This time she's fixated on keeping an eye on an injured Rhaegal's flying that she fails to pay attention to the substantial Ironborn fleet in plain sight, and the sluggish Rhaegal is killed by ballista fire as a result. || Failed a Spot Check, yes; WAI, no.
- Cersei has Daenerys, all her advisors, her elite guard, the head of her army and her last dragon at her mercy. She has them all under potential fire from hundreds of archers and dozens of ballistas. She decides to execute one hand maiden and then let the rest go for no apparent reason. || Why Dont You Just Shoot Them, not WAI.
Suggest axing with extreme prejudice.
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Yeah, those bolded lines do feel more in the vein of complaining to me.
As for the What An Idiot examples, because you have votes for keeping the entries (one for Sansa, one for Jon), I would suggest editing the second bullet point under that trope to focus on Sansa's actions (so both bullet points aren't arguing with each other). Then I'd suggest moving the "Jon's actions aren't stupid as they look - he trusts his family to hold their word as Starks and not betray him. Having the secret of his true name and parentage eat away at his conscience would do no good" bit to Both Sides Have a Point — but also add in how Dany had a point because Sansa did exactly what she had feared while Jon was certain she wouldn't.
What are your thoughts on that?
The bolded lines are my thoughts. :P I guess I do sound salty, don't I? Apologies; I'll try to contain my frustration.
I agree with your suggestions about the two examples, and the Both Sides Have a Point (all three sides have a point, I suppose).
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Oooh, I see! I'm sorry! Now it makes more sense! When stuff is bolded, my eye is immediately drawn! Reading the bolded lines in the context of the examples, yeah, I think you have a point with what you're saying per example. I should have read through that better, that's totally my fault, I was going on 30 hours of no sleep when I wrote that reply. Yes, some examples are verging into complain-y territory. I'm sorry for my misunderstanding!!
Yeah, now that you say it, all three sides do have a point, I think! :)
Edited by cherrychels
It looks like some Conversations In The Main Page are starting to happen now — do you think some of the newly added third level bullet point under Sansa's entry defending her actions in Unintentionally Unsympathetic can be incorporated into a new entry for Both Sides Have a Point (or all three sides have a point?)
Edited by cherrychels
Re: What An Idiot
Could the following be merged into a single entry under HonorBeforeReason, BothSidesHaveAPoint and maybe ThickerThanWater?
- Jon decides to tell the truth about his parentage to Arya and Sansa even when Dany already warns him not to because the two Stark sisters do not trust her. However, Jon insists he must tell them because they're still his family but is certain they won't say a word. Jon swears his sisters to secrecy and they do give him their promise — but in Sansa's next scene, she ultimately decides to tell Tyrion, who tells Varys, leading to conflicting loyalties and the risk of the truth getting out to the masses, which will inevitably divide their forces just before they do battle with Cersei. Boy, did that not work out. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero.
Jon: They are my family, we can live together. Dany: We can. I. Just. Told. You. How.
- Jon's actions aren't stupid as they look - he trusts his family to hold their word as Starks and not betray him. Having the secret of his true name and parentage eat away at his conscience would do no good. The real stupidity arguably is Sansa's, for betraying Jon's trust and letting the secret slip to Tyrion (and by extension Varys). Her decision threatens to split loyalties and ruin morale, giving Cersei an even bigger advantage over Daenerys than she already has - and if Cersei wins, the Stark-Lannister conflict won't end. Being a student of Littlefinger you'd think she'd have thought this through.
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying! Hide / Show Replies