Discussion ValuesDissonance / Dune

I'd personally say the first example still applies, the second not so much.

As you say, even if the eugenics is portrayed as not morally the best, it's still portrayed as something that works which is the problem. Eugenics isn't bad just because bad people have done it, it's also bad because it doesn't work.

For the second example, however, I'm less on board because how things worked in the real world simply may not be the case in this setting. Even if a particular, inaccurate view of the Roman Empire inspired a fictional society, the fact that view was inaccurate isn't that relevant. Even if the Holy Roman Empire didn't fall to decadence, it's not unbelievable that a wholly fictional society might have.

The eugenics program is presented as working, but brings Paul nothing but misery and his greatest joy is losing his abilities (or curse) that come from that eugenics. The Bene Gesserits are not presented particularly positively ever in the books. I don't think anyone can reasonably say that the value the books are trying to get across is that "eugenics is good, actually", which is what the trope is about, considering that "there's something intrinsically good about our leader" was a type of thinking that Frank Herbert was looking to viciously tear apart. There could definitely be a case for it appearing under the unfortunate implications section, but not under the values dissonance section.

The second point I was less sure about, but it's such a nebulous reading of the book, in my opinion, considering "decadence" was not remotely the only problem Frank Herbert showed as being commonplace in the Dune universe. Nor do I think the books are being given enough credit if your reading of The Golden Path (which is never portrayed as being a particularly good option, just the best of a whole lot of bad options) is that its intention was to avoid "decadence" versus creating freedom in a tightly controlled and sterile society constrained by a rigid class system, which was what the Bene Gesserit's breeding program was supposed to show. I'd certainly be willing to put it back with some editing and maybe some less contentious real life comparisons.

It's not that there's a single empire that fell due to decadence. Rather, much like in eugenics' case, this theme of a civilisation falling because they have it too good is shown as a law of how the universe works. Leto II's whole schtick is to stop humanity from repeating this cycle by making everyone distrustful of Big Government, I guess.

Saying that it doesn't need to be accurate to the real world to apply to the fictional world kind of misses the point. This theory may be as accurate as the genetic memory stuff that's even more important to the books' story, but only the former is currently a part of right wing fringe beliefs.

Edit: this is a reply to Larkman's post, I haven't seen the other post when I was writing this, will address later.

Leto II's plan is to introduce the idea to humans never to put their trust in one charismatic, ostensibly all-powerful leader, which means he's actively working against himself and the creation or promotion of anyone else like himself. Maybe it's another "unfortunate implication" that tyranny can lead to the putting down of tyranny, but once again I don't think the actual value that Herbert was trying to get across was as simple as "decadent societies are bad" or "Big Government is bad."

And as for the second point, once again, the situation is far more complicated than "Dune's society is bad because decadence is bad." It also had a rigid class structure where the rich preyed on the weak, and that was portrayed as a bad thing. I don't think that could reasonably be argued as values dissonance, but it's a major element of the story that Herbert was trying to tell about the state of the universe.

I would say that the eugenics program brining Paul nothing but misery doesn't really affect the core issue that eugenics are assumed to work.

But fair enough, I think you're right that this may be more of an Unfortunate Implications example, since this seems more a byproduct of Herbert wanting this genetics-controlled "magic system" rather than imparting some statement about human reproduction.

As for the second example, I have to admit that it's partially wrong: it says that Herbert was inspired by the The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but I double checked the source of this claim on Wikipedia, and it was actually that someone else did a reading of Dune comparing its themes to the theory outlined in that book. I still think that it applies.

I don't think the issue here is that Herbert wanted to criticise social decadence. Rather, like with the eugenics, this idea of violent conflict being unavoidable (and necessary) when a society grows too static (i.e. people were having it too peaceful) is assumed to be truthful.

It's not contrary to the message of "never to put their trust in one charismatic, ostensibly all-powerful leader", nor do I think it should be read as superseding it, or anything like that. They kind of work side by side, mostly because the society that keeps collapsing is an autocratic empire. But I do think those are two separate messages.

I just think this theme pops up in too many places to ignore. It's in Fremen vs Sardaukar. It's in Pauls vision of his jihad (notably, he's not happy about it, but believes it's inevitable because of human nature reacting to the stagnation of the Empire). It's part of what Leto II is doing, because the Scattering is meant to prevent a huge, all-encompassing, stable social organization like the Empire from arising again (yes, you could say it's meant to be mostly against a single leader running everything, but with the other examples, I think this fits the pattern as well).

And unlike Bene Gesserit breeding a messiah figure, this theme has real world implications if taken as true. You know, that society shouldn't be too peaceful, that war is better for "human spirit" than nebulous "stagnation". Hence I propose it's Values Dissonance.

I'd be perfectly fine with moving the eugenics entry to unfortunate implications, then, with an edited entry about decadence (with the reference to The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire removed and, once again, maybe the contentious real life example) back in Values Dissonance. I'm still probably of the opinion that the entry is probably a bit too generalized, but the entire point of the website is that there's a bit of interpretation with each entry.

I think you're right.