History ValuesDissonance / Dune

While Herbert did include a fair amount of DeliberateValuesDissonance for the time he himself was writing in so that the setting would feel different, and while the books have some pointedly sharp elements pressing against the culture of the time, there are still elements of the early books, in particular, that mark the books as [[FairForItsDay products of their era]] and might feel strange to readers half a century or more later.

* An exiled prince is thrust out into the desert with his mother, slowly but surely earns the trust of the sun-darkened inhabitants of the desert, eventually rising to become their leader and their prophet, and leads them to glory against their enemies with the actual mystic, foretold powers he possesses. Today's readers, upon starting the book, may assume the original ''Dune'' is playing the MightyWhitey card just like Film/LawrenceOfArabia. Those who are drawn to the novel through the 1984 film may also assume such. However, the book and the rest of the series ''famously'' turns this trope on its head a good deal, as the prophecy and Paul's abilities are entirely the result of ''thousands'' of years of [[TheChessmaster human]] [[GambitPileup machinations]], the coming galactic Jihad is unambiguously presented as an inevitable, terrible thing, and Paul and his family then need to deal with the consequences of all this (and the 1984 film glossed it all over). In the [=60s=], though, MightyWhitey was only just beginning to become a DiscreditedTrope and examples prior to and contemporary to ''Dune'''s release were ubiquitous, and indeed still part and parcel of Anglophone young adult adventure (which is the original book's genre, at least on its face, [[BaitAndSwitch before getting more complicated]]). Also, if we're bringing skin color into it, it's arguably a SubvertedTrope already: the Atreides complexion is said to be "olive" like the Fremen (with the Duke Leto in particular being "dark olive"), and the very name ''Atreides'', meaning "son of Atreus", hints that they have distant Greek ancestry (their direct descent from [[Myth/GreekMythology Agamemnon]] son of Atreus is confirmed in ''Children of Dune'' through ancestral memory), not to mention their bullfighting culture relating them to Spain; all of this makes it debatable if they are actually "white" (in the sense that they should be considered Mediterranean rather than fully Caucasian). This can't be debated for the actors cast as Paul, however, being all of them white Anglo-Saxons.

* Although Herbert's overall treatment of gender roles is complex and part of the point, there is one element that rather sticks out: whenever a ''man'' learns the secrets of the ''all-female'' Bene Gesserit order or its offshoots, the men are shown as being inherently superior in these arts without exception, and exploiting this in-universe is actually part of the Gesserit plan. While it's implied that the chosen man actually needs to have centuries of genetic manipulation behind him in order to be able to learn such secrets (Paul, Leto II, Duncan Idaho, Miles Teg are all complete anomalies brought about by genetic engineering), as well as some token mention being made of the situation being reversed earlier in history, in practice the narrative consistently demonstrates an ideal of male superiority. Apparently the male psyche is too horrific to be looked at by a female consciousness. In the 21st century the worst and earliest examples of this in the series can seem almost comical, but in TheSixties the idea of total male superiority was still omnipresent - it's the whole reason the women's liberation movement ''existed'' - and for an author born in 1920 and writing in the [=60s=], this approach and philosophy would've been largely mainstream and presupposed.
* An exiled prince is thrust out into the desert with his mother, slowly but surely earns the trust of the sun-darkened inhabitants of the desert, eventually rising to become their leader and their prophet, and leads them to glory against their enemies with the actual mystic, foretold powers he possesses. Today's readers, upon starting the book, may assume the original ''Dune'' is playing the MightyWhitey card just like Film/LawrenceOfArabia. Those who are drawn to the novel through the 1984 film may also assume such. However, the book and the rest of the series ''famously'' turns this trope on its head a good deal, as the prophecy and Paul's abilities are entirely the result of ''thousands'' of years of [[TheChessmaster human]] [[GambitPileup machinations]], the coming galactic Jihad is unambiguously presented as an inevitable, terrible thing, and Paul and his family then need to deal with the consequences of all this (and the 1984 film glossed it all over). In the [=60s=], though, MightyWhitey was only just beginning to become a DiscreditedTrope and examples prior to and contemporary to ''Dune'''s release were ubiquitous, and indeed still part and parcel of Anglophone young adult adventure (which is the original book's genre, at least on its face, [[BaitAndSwitch before getting more complicated]]). Also, if we're bringing skin color into it, it's arguably a SubvertedTrope already: the Atreides complexion is said to be "olive" like the Fremen (with the Duke Leto in particular being "dark olive"), and the very name ''Atreides'', meaning "son of Atreus", hints that they have distant Greek ancestry (their direct descent from [[Myth/GreekMythology Agamemnon]] son of Atreus is confirmed in ''Children of Dune'' through ancestral memory), not to mention their bullfighting culture relating them to Spain; all of this makes it debatable if they are actually "white" (in the sense that they should be considered Mediterranean rather than fully Caucasian). This can't be debated for the actors cast as Paul, however.

* The opposite case could be made about the previous point too. With groups like the Islamic State, the Taliban and Al Qaeda on everyone's radar, it's become increasingly harder to read fanatical jihadis as good guys, and while in the story Fremen are not presented as good guys per se, they are still the protagonists' main allies and a solid source of favorable comparison to the decadent Harkonnens, Corrinos and the rest of the Imperial peoples. The latter division also presents Fremen in a light that enforces classical NobleSavage traits, like being closer to nature, maintaining a tough-but-just meritocratic society, and being ultimately superior in battle to their enemies in a way connected to their also superior virtue, while at the same time overlooking their archaic gender dynamics (like polygyny and trade of wives as booty), which are not condemned or addressed in the story. The result is that modern readers might feel uncomfortable at being suggested to root for them, either due to the brutality they spouse or to the outdated cultural stereotypes that in other circumstances should have served as redeeming qualities.

* Although Herbert's overall treatment of gender roles is complex and part of the point, there is one element that rather sticks out: whenever a ''man'' learns the secrets of the ''all-female'' Bene Gesserit order or its offshoots, the men are shown as being inherently superior in these arts without exception, and exploiting this in-universe is actually part of the Gesserit plan. While it's implied that the chosen man actually needs to have centuries of genetic manipulation behind him in order to be able to learn such secrets (Paul, Leto II, Duncan Idaho, Miles Teg are all complete anomalies brought about by genetic engineering), as well as some token mention being made of the situation being reversed earlier in history, in practice the narrative consistently demonstrates an ideal of male superiority, at least biologically. Apparently the male psyche is too horrific to be looked at by a female consciousness. In the 21st century the worst and earliest examples of this in the series can seem almost comical, but in TheSixties the idea of total male superiority was still omnipresent - it's the whole reason the women's liberation movement ''existed'' - and for an author born in 1920 and writing in the [=60s=], this approach and philosophy would've been largely mainstream and presupposed.

* Herbert discusses and deconstructs so many anthropological, biological and cultural aspects of society and sex in the franchise that modern viewers, especially those not hailing from the United States, might blink at how casually the first book mentions Paul's firstborn son is set to be circumcised as per the Islamic Fremen custom. In modern times, neonatal circumcision in the west has become a very controversial practice due to concerns about consent, bodily integrity, necessity and health, making it potentially odd-looking that Herbert completely ignores. The explanation, which as mentoned is much more necessary to those not living in America, is simply that in Herbert's time and still nowadays, neonatal circumcision was well established in the United States due to a Anglophone medical fad in the 19th and 20th centuries advertising it as a way to prevent masturbation, which was later replaced by other benefits that are still recommended. Therefore, for an American born in 1920 like Herbert, the whole thing didn't earn a mention because it was completely commonplace.

* Although Herbert's overall treatment of gender roles is complex and part of the point, there is one element that rather sticks out: whenever a ''man'' learns the secrets of the ''all-female'' Bene Gesserit order or its offshoots, the men are shown as being inherently superior in these arts without exception, and exploiting this in-universe is actually part of the Gesserit plan. While it's implied that the chosen man actually needs to have centuries of genetic manipulation behind him in order to be able to learn such secrets (Paul, Leto II, Duncan Idaho, Miles Teg are all complete anomalies brought about by genetic engineering), as well as some token mention being made of the situation being reversed earlier in history, in practice the narrative consistently demonstrates an ideal of male superiority. Apparently the male psyche is too horrific to be looked at by a female consciousness. In the 21st century the worst and earliest examples of this in the series can seem almost comical, but in TheSixties the idea of total male superiority was still omnipresent - it's the whole reason the women's liberation movement ''existed'' - and for an author born in 1920 and writing in the [=60s=], this approach and philosophy would've been largely mainstream and presupposed.

* Despite being set thousands of years of the future, the setting has a clear lack of futuristic 'laserguns' common to the genre. Herbert found an in-universe justification for this by having the beam of a lasgun, when striking a shield, would cause a nuclear explosion killing both target and gunner, so no rational person would ever use them lightly. This makes a lot of sense when you realize when the first book was written during the cold war, when the US and USSR had the nuclear weapons to utterly destroy one another, but mutually-assured-destruction ensured anyone pulling the trigger would die in nuclear fire just like the target, and fortunately for all rational minds kept their cool. But that was before the rise of fanatical terrorism, which resulted in suicide bombers and other fanatics that would gladly martyr themselves in order to kill as many of the enemy (or even their civilians) as possible. Moreover, since then armies are more conscious of friendly fire and accidental discharges, which you can never fully prevent. As such, having everything protected by something that blows up in a mushroom cloud the moment someone is crazy or careless enough to hit it with a type of gun that is uncommon but hardly rare, would seem rather insane.

* Herbert was mostly able to keep his extreme homophobia (to the point of disowning his younger son for supporting gay rights) out of the books, but the brief moments portraying Baron Harkonnen as a DepravedHomosexual who lusts after his own nephew are quite uncomfortable these days.
* Despite being set thousands of years of the future, the setting has a clear lack of futuristic 'laserguns' common to the genre. Herbert found an in-universe justification for this by having the beam of a lasgun, when striking a shield, would cause a nuclear explosion killing both target and gunner, so no rational person would ever use them lightly. This makes a lot of sense when you realize when the first book was written during the cold war, when the US and USSR had the nuclear weapons to utterly destroy one another, but mutually-assured-destruction ensured anyone pulling the trigger would die in nuclear fire just like the target, and fortunately for all rational minds kept their cool. But that was before the rise of fanatical terrorism, which resulted in suicide bombers and other fanatics that would gladly martyr themselves in order to kill as many of the enemy (or even their civilians) as possible. Moreover, since then every fighting force has become very conscious of things like friendly fire or accidental discharges, which you can never fully prevent. As such, having everything protected by something that blows up in a mushroom cloud the moment someone is crazy or careless enough to hit it with a type of gun that is uncommon but hardly rare, would seem rather insane.
* Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote ''Dune'' in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continues to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books' premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.

* An exiled prince is thrust out into the desert with his mother, slowly but surely earns the trust of the sun-darkened inhabitants of the desert, eventually rising to become their leader and their prophet, and leads them to glory against their enemies with the actual mystic, foretold powers he possesses. Today's readers, upon starting the book, may assume the original ''Dune'' is playing the MightyWhitey card just like Film/LawrenceOfArabia. Those who are drawn to the novel through the 1984 film may also assume such. However, the book and the rest of the series ''famously'' turns this trope on its head a good deal, as the prophecy and Paul's abilities are entirely the result of ''thousands'' of years of [[TheChessmaster human]] [[GambitPileup machinations]], the coming galactic Jihad is unambiguously presented as an inevitable, terrible thing, and Paul and his family then need to deal with the consequences of all this (and the 1984 film glossed it all over). In the [=60s=], though, this was only just beginning to become a DiscreditedTrope and examples prior to and contemporary to ''Dune'''s release were ubiquitous, and indeed still part and parcel of Anglophone young adult adventure (which is the original book's genre, at least on its face, [[BaitAndSwitch before getting more complicated]]). Also, if we're bringing skin color into it, it's arguably a SubvertedTrope already: the Atreides complexion is said to be "olive" like the Fremen (with the Duke Leto in particular being "dark olive") and the very name ''Atreides'', meaning "son of Atreus", hints that they have distant Greek ancestry (their direct descent from [[Myth/GreekMythology Agamemnon]] son of Atreus is confirmed in ''Children of Dune'' through ancestral memory), making it debatable if they are actually "white" (in the sense that they should be considered Mediterranean rather than fully Caucasian). This can't be debated for the actors cast as Paul, however.

* While the administrators of various breeding programs are hardly ever presented as heroic, it may seem distasteful that aside from spice, the universe is running on eugenics and genetic determinism.
* A large inspiration for ''Dune'' was ''The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'' by Edward Gibbon, and the series incorporates Gibbon's views into its plot (for example, the Sardaukar were once the most powerful military force in the known universe, but grew decadent and accustomed to luxuries since then, and thus were defeated by the Fremen, who still lived in a brutal, NobleSavage society). In general, the series seems preoccupied with the need of humankind to avoid "stagnation" even at the cost of constant conflict and suffering of individuals. By 2020s, the belief that the Roman Empire, and civilizations in general, fell because of "decadence" and people not being hardy enough is not mainstream, and considered somewhat of a far-right position.

* Despite being set thousands of years of the future, the setting has a clear lack of futuristic 'laserguns' common to the genre. Herbert found an in-universe justification for this by having the beam of a lasgun, when striking a shield, would cause a nuclear explosion killing both target and gunner, so no rational person would ever use them lightly. This makes a lot of sense when you realize when the first book was written during the cold war, when the US and USSR had the nuclear weapons to utterly destroy one another, but mutually-assured-destruction ensured anyone pulling the trigger would die in nuclear fire just like the target, and fortunately for all rational minds kept their cool. But that was before the rise of fanatical terrorism, which resulted in suicide bommbers and other fanatics that would gladly martyr themselves in order to kill as many of the enemy (or even their civilians) as possible. Moreover, since then every fighting force has become very conscious of things like friendly fire or accidental discharges, which you can never fully prevent. As such, having everything protected by something that blows up in a mushroom cloud the moment someone is crazy or careless enough to hit it with a type of gun that is uncommon but hardly rare, would seem rather insane.
* Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote ''Dune'' in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continuous to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books' premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.

* A large inspiration for ''Dune'' was ''The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'' by Edward Gibbon, and the series incorporates Gibbon's views into its plot (for example, the Sardaukar were once the most powerful military force in the known universe, but grew decadent and accustomed to luxuries since then, and thus were defeated by the Fremen, who still lived in a brutal, NobleSavage society). In general, the series seems preoccupied with the need of humankind to avoid "stagnation" even at the cost of constant conflict and suffering of individuals. By 2020s, the belief that the Roman Empire, and civilizations in general, fell because of "decadence" and people not being hardy enough is not mainstream, and considered somewhat of a far-right position.

* Although Herbert's overall treatment of gender roles is complex and part of the point, there is one element that rather sticks out: whenever a ''man'' learns the secrets of the ''all-female'' Bene Gesserit order or its offshoots, the men are shown as being inherently superior in these arts without exception, and exploiting this in-universe is actually part of the Gesserit plan. While it's implied that the chosen man actually needs to have centuries of genetic manipulation behind him in order to be able to learn such secrets (Paul, Leto II, Duncan Idaho, Miles Teg are all complete anomalies brought about by genetic engineering), as well as some token mention being made of the situation being reversed earlier in history, in practice the narrative consistently demonstrates an ideal of male superiority. Apparently the male psyche is too horrific to be looked at by a female consciousness (to be fair, a lot of modern feminists would still argue that, though for slightly different reasons). In the 21st century the worst and earliest examples of this in the series can seem almost comical, but in TheSixties the idea of total male superiority was still omnipresent - it's the whole reason the women's liberation movement ''existed'' - and for an author born in 1920 and writing in the [=60s=], this approach and philosophy would've been largely mainstream and presupposed.

* The opposite case could be made about the previous point too. With groups like the Islamic State, the Taliban and Al Qaeda on everyone's radar, it's become increasingly harder to read fanatical jihadis as good guys, and while in the story Fremen are not presented as good guys per se, they are still the protagonists' main allies and a solid source of favorable comparison to the decadent Harkonnens, Corrinos and the rest of the Imperial peoples. The latter division also presents Fremen in a light that enforces classical NobleSavage traits, like being closer to nature, maintaining a tough-but-just meritocratic society, and being ultimately superior in battle to their enemies in a way connected to their also superior virtue, while at the same time overlooking their archaic gender dynamics (like polyginy and trade of wives as booty), which are not condemned or addressed in the story. The result is that modern readers might feel uncomfortable at being suggested to root for them, either due to the brutality they spouse or to the outdated cultural stereotypes that in other circumstances should have served as redeeming qualities.

* Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote ''Dune'' in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continuous to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books' premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.

** Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote ''Dune'' in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continuous to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play ''VideoGame/CallOfDuty'' on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books' premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.

* The opposite case could be made about the previous point too. With groups like the Islamic State, the Taliban and Al Qaeda on everyone's radar, it's become increasingly harder to read fanatical jihadis as good guys, and while in the story Fremen are not presented as good guys per se, they are still the protagonists' main allies and a solid source of favorable comparison to the decadent Harkonnens, Corrinos and the rest of the Imperial peoples. The latter division also presents Fremen in a light that enforces classical NobleSavage traits, like being closer to nature, maintaining a tough-but-just meritocratic society, and being ultimately superior in battle to their enemies in a way connected to their also superior virtue, while at the same time overlooking archaic gender dynamics (like polyginy and trade of wives as booty) that are not condemned or deeply addressed in the story. The result is that modern readers might feel uncomfortable at being suggested to root for them, either due to the brutality they spouse or to the outdated cultural stereotypes that in other circumstances should have served as redeeming qualities.

** Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote Dune in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continuous to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play ''Call of Duty'' on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books' premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.

** Also, mentats are stated to be superior to computers, being able to do computations faster and allowing for human ratio and insight to draw connections and conclusions a machine cannot. However, Herbert wrote Dune in a time when computers were the size of rooms and used solely for mathematical computations. Most experts at the time assumed computers would become bigger and bigger as they became more capable, and the head of IBM infamously stated that in the future there would be five computers: one for each continent, servicing the computational needs of all the people there. What happened instead was the rise of the personal computer, small yet capable enough to meet the needs of a single individual. And those needs often did not require raw computational power to solve second order differential equations, but word processors to make documents, programs for snazzy presentations, spreadsheets to simply keep track of numbers, the easy storing of information, etc. This continuous to this day, with computers used for convenience rather than processing power. Computers became very flexible and adaptable tools in the hands of its users which strengths do not fully overlap with even the greatest mind. Stating a mentat to be superior to a computer is like stating one's head is superior to a hammer; usually true, but which do you want to use when hammering a nail? And you cannot play Call of Duty on Thufir Hawat. As such, the books premise that humans have taken over the tasks of computers seems a bit myopic.