I think that came from pre-release stuff describing him as more antagonistic, plus his manga self being more overtly villainous even after the Mind Crush. Pyramid of Light has him in a similar role too.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
I actually feel Kaiba in Dark Side of Dimensions is a bit softer than he was at the end of the manga. In the manga, he was willing to let others suffer through Battle City for the sake of a chance to duel Atem. I generally believe his motivation for defeating Atem was more complicated than just a matter of pride, but he was very callous to the suffering of Yugi's friends. In this movie, we don't really see him reach that level. When the world is put at risk, he's the one who asks Yugi to team up. The pre-release stuff also didn't say he was villainous, as has already been discussed on the YMMV discussion page. I just feel that this wasn't an entry that should've been jumped to including, but it's an easy enough fix.
Edited by SpicyStrawberries
In my opinion, he didn't come off as overly villainous. If anything, he'd be an Anti-Hero.
Re: broken aesop again, does Atem coming back belong on the main page and not YMMV? It could be taken that the GX entry meant Atem coming back as in back for good, to duel through Yugi again. Here he helps out very briefly before leaving again and taking the Puzzle with him for good.
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Broken Aesop is a non-YMMV trope, and the GX entry would likely have been a oneshot deal as in DSOD, as it was a scrapped movie scenario.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
A while ago this Broken Aesop entry was deleted without giving a reason:
"The Ceremonial Battle was all about Yugi overcoming Atem in a duel to prove he had grown to the point he no longer needed his other self and was ready to be on his own. In this film, after much of the film is spent building up the idea that Yugi and Kaiba need to move on with their lives and accept Atem isn't coming back, the possessed Aigami is about to deal the game-ending blow when Atem spontaneously returns to save Yugi and defeat Aigami, proving that Yugi does still need his help sometimes."
In this canceled YGO movie idea
Takahashi specifically said he thought about bringing Atem back but decided against it because it would betray the theme of the story, and now DSOD did bring him back to help Yugi. Do you think that's grounds enough to put the entry back?
I personally think it's fair to note that. I'd like to see the interview where he states this as things have been misconstrued in past interviews, but it seems plausible that he said and meant that. If the interview can't be found though it should be noted it isn't confirmed.
I do think regarding the first part of the entry, that it's also completely fair to note somewhere the contrast between Kaiba's obsession against how the other characters seem to be moving on. It should be noted because I think this contrast was intentional. It can also be noted how Kaiba's continued obsession is seen as a regression by many fans and is considered unhealthy. We all know how debated Kaiba's motivation is. The question is, is the movie's theme overall actually about moving on or is it about grieving as a complex human emotion? Because it could be debated to be either, in the same way Kaiba's motivation is debated. If it's the latter theme, this entry still doesn't belong. I'm wondering if that part of the entry could be reworded or moved to YMMV? Especially since it's not about the character's behavior but the movie itself.
Can it be said there's a "correct" way to grieve? There's certainly far healthier ways, but implying Yugi's way of swift recovery is how all people should grieve doesn't sit right with me and to me the movie doesn't imply this. Both characters' emotional states seem respected by the movie. I think we should focus more on the contrast between the characters, but that isn't Broken Aesop and it's also a very biased opinion on my part. As another note, the "directly telling him to move on" seems to have been a dub addition.
This part of the entry you added, "the film is spent building up the idea that Yugi and Kaiba need to move on with their lives and accept Atem isn't coming back," already notes things in a softer manner I won't contest. I feel as if adding that Kaiba traveled to the afterlife alone is enough. I'm honestly trying to have a discussion here, so please don't interpret this as an attack.
Edited by SpicyStrawberries
Actually, would someone who's more neutral on this be willing to give their input? Even if it means shooting me down in full, so long as you can explain.
The Vs. GX anecdote came from volume 8 of the manga's bunkoban, which wasn't released in English. Here
◊ is the translation of that part!
It came from this site ^^ http://yumeoidaku.info/manga.html
All right, then that part is entirely good to go. I just wanted to see the actual line and it seems the meaning is fairly literal in this case. Thank you.
No yays or nays to putting Yugi's reaction on a pedestal in the entry when the movie itself doesn't?
Edited by SpicyStrawberries
Watching the movie I didn't get the impression that the message was meant to be 'Kaiba should move on'. I didn't even feel Kaiba was as villainous as the promo material suggested, since a lot of the conflict was caused by Aigami and only caused by Kaiba indirectly.
I guess some of it is because Kaiba is the main character, so the movie feels more sympathetic to his view than it would otherwise? For example, when Atem talks to Kaiba about forgetting his past being bad for him in the long run and his might makes right philosophy causing his losses, the narrative validates his viewpoint when Atem is able to defeat him principally because Kaiba tries to use brute strength.
It didn't feel exactly what way with Yugi since Kaiba letting go of finding Atem again isn't what happens and isn't necessary for defeating Aigami.
TL;DR, it seems highly subjective to me so I'm curious of anyone else walked away from the movie feeling there was a particular aesop or message?
Aesop Amnesia
Further to the discussion about 'Broken Aesop', can we irrefutably say Kaiba has forgotten lessons learnt in-series and that Aesop Amnesia applies?
For manga continuity, the big issue Kaiba seemed to have was a tendency to try and deny his past, and to use anger and hatred as motivating forces. This was why he always lost, most notably in the Battle City finals - he powered up his monster and expected Atem to match him in power. When Atem didn't do that, he lost.
He also mentioned seeing Atem as someone tied to the past (his hangup to get his memories back), and defeating him would prove Kaiba was only interested in the future.
Anyways, in this movie Kaiba doesn't mention wanting to defeat Atem for any of his original reasons (he does in the English, but I'm looking at the Japanese original), and he doesn't mention his painful past. The biggest reason I think he explicitly gives is that Atem represents someone at the top of their game, and the hologram just doesn't evolve the same way he does.
This is also a subjective point, but Kaiba doesn't seem as motivated by anger as previously.
TL:DR, Aesop Amnesia feels quite YMMV here, so should it be included?
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A lot of these entries where placed back before the film was shown here, based on assumptions.
Edited by SpicyStrawberries
Made an account after years of lurking just for this, which is really lame but whatever we're all lame here.
I see someone already tried deleting the Flanderization entry, and idk why it was decided to put it back.
Flanderization isn't YMMV specific agreed, but the other uses on the main pages of this wiki have been for extremely concrete and undeniable examples like it's namesake. But the entry here is defo resting solely on a transparently biased interpretation of what's In Character for Kaiba. This is the same guy that blew up an entire island for catharsis POST character development, thinking to hell with the piece of mind of all the already emotionally exhausted people on it so long as he'd more or less assured their physical safety. Sure it's not deplorable by Kaiba standards, especially with all his well established and understandable issues, but that's still not a huge leap to taking the loss of a really important person in his life especially hard after not getting closure, and still being in the headspace of seeking out and sating his own emotional needs both before everyone else and also before common sense. Because this is only six months after the manga, not years.
It's also important to mention this movie isn't even out in any majority-english speaking countries yet, let alone internationally. Meaning most of the Kaiba fans who are upset, a group which is not a majority even amongst Kaiba's fans specifically, are living in countries who haven't even gotten the movie, and are instead basing their outrage on summaries of the film posted by people who did see it. People who are Kaiba fans themselves and either don't mention feeling any problems toward the characterization, or who actively liked it. Even on whole boards for fans from Korea and Japan, the countries that have actually gotten this movie, have even fewer people saying he's OOC than everywhere else.
Which is possibly why "Mokuba is wholly supportive of him" is in both the entry here and on the Anime and Manga/Flanderization page, despite Mokuba explicitly trying to halt his brother's more blatantly dangerous risks multiple times between the tie in prequel manga and the movie itself. Once during a scene in the movie which would be impossible to forget if you'd seen it, due to it's placement and memorability. Not even getting into how Mokuba assisting his brother in his escapades despite his concerns is completely in character. Out of character for Mokuba would be if he never voiced a concern.
Dunno what usually happens in cases like this, and I'm not getting in an edit war about it. So I leave all this to the more experiences tropers to handle.
Edited by bofadeez return the slab, or suffer the wrath of bophades Hide / Show Replies
After reading this I looked into more and, just as I already knew I would, I found not just more people with the opposite opinion of Kaiba's characterization, but also people who live in those countries or went specifically to see the movie who were objecting specifically to the Flanderization entry on the main page. Needless to say, I'm removing it again.
This is not anywhere close to a widely agreed upon opinion among those who have seen the film, and certainly not amongst Kaiba fans (of which I am one), so it's disingenuous to include it on the page. I won't go into Kaiba's past behavior, as you've already done that, but I will mention that his behavior had some notable differences due specifically to his character growth. It's true he might not be taking other people's feelings into consideration, but his methods aren't anywhere close to his earliest iterations. Not enough purposeful vengeful murder, and 0 terrifying punishments for his brother after he "failed" in his task.
It's tantamount to saying "I disagree with the direction of this character, so it's inaccurate". That's what I meant when I said it was heavily ymmv. Not that the trope itself only belongs on that page, but that if it's going to be on the main one then it needs to be an obvious example, not just something that SOME fans don't like.
Edited by theoddkoala
i added the Flanderization entry back around when the movie had just come out and you saw arguments like this, this,this, this, this, and this, as well as it being ambiguous as to what happened in the movie at all.
Stuff like this and this from the manga also pointed to Kaiba trying to move on, which the movie appeared to negate.
But looking at things now things have calmed down enough so that people that dislike it are still annoyed at it but not angry XD; People that ship Atem/Kaiba are very happy, though.
This analysis and counter-analysis is also interesting.
I think people's views of Kaiba depend on if you see him as 'Yugi's rival first, Mokuba's brother second' or the other way around. Or both depending on his mood. Plus the manga/anime differences, and that those traits were introduced in that order.
Sorry for all the trouble.
Edited by lalalei2001 The Protomen enhanced my life.
The problem is that almost all of these are just people who read spoilers, with the exception of maybe two that are still ambiguous rather than definitely having seen it, which was my point. The ones calling it flanderization, rather than just something they don't personally like, are almost entirely people who have not seen the movie.
Also, sure, Kaiba in the manga was trying to move on. But that's emphasis on "trying". Kaiba has never just gotten better, he's always zigzagged because getting better is hard for him. So just because he's had a setback, especially one where he's acting more in line with his latest development than his earliest (again, he's being a dick, but not a monster), doesn't erase that. It's just part of it.
edit: It's worth mentioning that Kaiba in the manga also thought he was going to see Atem again when he got back from starting in on his Kaiba Land goals, but instead he wound up arriving in Egypt just barely too late to even see him leave.
Edited by theoddkoala
The Millennium Ring is the Greater-Scope Villain in the movie, and since the manga establishes Zorc Necrophades as the secret evil in the Ring, does that mean Zorc appears in the movie as well?
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The Items were said to have an evil intelligence in the manga, so that's probably what's causing it—not Zorc himself, but his general evil.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
I'm getting rid of the "Villain Protagonist" entries here and on the VP page itself too. These are entries made before the film was even seen here (just look at the original entry on the VP page. Even on this page, I had to soften that entry before). Seto Kaiba certainly fits the anti-hero mold, but he's not reprehensible in his actions. Aigami is the film's villain.
Edited by SpicyStrawberries Hide / Show Replies