Fire Emblem

I guess I'm not that familiar with the Jugdral games, but when the end result is creating what I've been told is basically the anti-Christ, that seems pretty earth-shattering to me. The series as a whole tends toward something big enough to, at minimum, end an entire continent, if not the world (or multiple worlds, for Fates).

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Well, the exact quote was:

It's the "practical Low Fantasy setting" part I was having issues with.

Honestly, I don't think any Fire Emblem game should go the Low Fantasy route, mostly because I really like the fantastical elements of the series (the magic, the dragons, etc).

Actually the fantasy bits are getting more pronounced. From hidden floating continents of Valla, Goo monsters, the many fantastical elements of Valentia, magical biological weapons, the magicap power of dragons that flows in the Dragon Veins, etc.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

I dunno, playing Echoes I was like "you could replaced the goddess with a queen and the undead with bandits and little in the plot would change." meanwhile Awakening is completely dependent on a time travel plot and Fates makes the main character a shapeshifting dragon.

Edited by ShirowShirow on Dec 3rd 2018 at 1:15:28 PM

Bleye knows Sabers.

Awakening and Fates are more High Fantasy then the usual Fire Emblem. The original depiction of Naga definitely couldn't Time Travel.

Well, as far as basic plot points go, perhaps. Thematically, it would matter a great deal, I think.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 3rd 2018 at 1:17:29 PM

Oh God! Natural light!

No its actually a point that the dead have risen and taken over places no one lives. Including rising to avenge the tombs being graverobbed by actual bandits.

The bandits and their leader in Valentia are dealt with by Act 3, and beyond them are Mad Scientist religion turned cult where the cultsits become inhuman and gain magical powers from their God, their sacrifices his souless heralds, the land becoming magically infertile because the Gods are why the land was nourished to begin with, magic springs thst can revive the dead, etc.

Though as x2 points out its not the level of fantasy Awakening and Fates are.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 3rd 2018 at 10:21:04 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Echoes I would definitely say is still high fantasy. Again, you've got magic users aplenty slinging spells aplomb, dragons that can take people's souls, magical weapons, flying eyeballs slinging magic around...stuff that's basically too fantastical for a low fantasy setting.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 3rd 2018 at 10:22:34 AM

Actually, yeah, I think that Omega's right. Mila and Duma, and their existence as gods, are kind of the reason the plot occurs in the first place.

Oh God! Natural light!

Yup. The continent is literally uninhabitable for humans. Even as corpses their giant Tree is what sustains the continent.

Plus all the nonhuman creatures that apparently flourished before humanity arrived and we even fight as some formspf undead Terrors.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Relatedly, in the past I've felt that Fire Emblem should lean more to the political conflicts than world ending dragon and zombie crises. And I do feel that way still I guess, but I am becoming more interested in what the more fantastical creatures can provide as well. Must be my inner Robin and Corrin fan speaking up, seeing how connected they are to their local super dragons.

It's not like one precldues the other.

I appear to have caused quite the discussion while I was asleep. Anyway, Jugdral especially is, to me, Low Fantasy, which doesn't preclude it from being a fantasy story. The story is about politics and warfare, and all the magic is just a small aspect of the universe and not part of some greater cosmology. Even the mages are soldiers and nobles, after all, and the holy weapons of Jugdral are even deployed in open warfare just like any other sword.

I guess if I wanted to be impartial I'd call Gen 1 Low Fantasy with its story about honorable knight Sigurd getting dicked around the continent until he ends up at the world's shittiest barbecue, and Gen 2 High Fantasy with Seliph fighting to reclaim his birthright against an evil empire run by a dark god while being aided by a divine mentor.

Edited by RodimusMinor on Dec 4th 2018 at 9:10:05 AM

From the 4 Fire Emblem games I've played, they seem to have an incredibly difficult time balancing good gameplay & good story. However, from my experience with Echoes & Blazing Sword tells me that the stories aren't nearly as good as people make them out to be. Specifically Genealogy & the Tellius Duology seems to be interesting so far.

My issue is that you are misusing the term "low fantasy." A story being about politics and warfare does not automatically make something "low fantasy," and I'm not sure you can say that magic is not part of a greater cosmology when a major part of the game revolves around the blood of god-like dragons giving you extra perks in life.

The story of Generation 1 might be something you'd be more likely to see in low fantasy works, but the setting itself has so many fantastical elements that it really can't be called low fantasy. Again, when you have mages throwing meteors down on soldiers, dragons that can possess people, and magical weapons aplenty, the setting is as low fantasy as Sigurd is fire resistant.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 4th 2018 at 7:53:07 AM

I am not misusing the term, we just have different definitions on what constitutes Low Fantasy. To me, especially in the first gen, the divine heritage, exalted weapons, and mages are a background element to the plot and world. Azel's magic isn't important to the universe, it's just a tool he uses to kill dudes on the battlefield. The divine bloodline of the Twelve Crusaders are just... aspects that shape the nobility of Grannvale and Reptor would just be a rich asshole if he wasn't descended from dragon's blood. Like yeah there's a dark god and stuff at the end, but that's it and he explicitly acts through Julius as a vessel. Pretty much every other FE title has the dark dragon du jour assuming their true form on the battlefield.

Magic being a background element of the world and plot =/= low fantasy. Especially in Jugdral's case, where magic is a very important background element, what with the whole blood-bonding with god-like dragons being a major foundation of the story.

If the amount of magic present in the story was very low, then it would be closer to low fantasy. But Jugdral has way too many magic users and magical elements to count.

The story is certainly one of the more down-to-earth tales in the series, but overall the setting is very fantastical.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 4th 2018 at 8:32:54 AM

RE: dragonfire5000

As mentioned, thats your interpretation, but this website currently uses a different definition.

I was actually using the definitions from our Low Fantasy page. Jugdral meets some of the stuff listed there, but not enough to actually qualify as low fantasy.

And honestly, some of the stuff listed on that page can also be found in high fantasy works, so I wouldn't call it a perfect list. Then again, the page does also mention that the term "low fantasy" is pretty inexact.

Fire Emblem being listed under Low Fantasy needs to be fixed. It in no way is Low Fantasy due to the nature of the magic system and how dragons and goddesses work.

Fire Emblem is Heroic Fantasy through and through. It contains everything that Fire Emblem does that would be considered Low Fantasy while also accounting for the greater magical aspect of the series.

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 4th 2018 at 12:57:36 PM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

RE: Epic Bleye

Goddesses only show up in Tellius.

Dragons have limitations in most settings and in every setting are shown as getting stomped by humanity.

Fire Emblem Magic is pretty manufactured. To most ordinary soldier, a fire tome is more like a flamethrower.

Edited by Monsund on Dec 4th 2018 at 9:55:50 AM

Okay, let's break this down. All taken from our Low Fantasy page.

Fire Emblem only accounts for the human dominance part. Magic is super prominent and dragons and demons are likened to gods and humans, not animals.

Self-explanatory. Fire Emblem is always doing the save the country thing against evil dudes that trying to summon evil demons. Maybe it starts out with a few individuals, but it always ends up being a whole stop the evil dragon/demon/dude thing.

Only a few games in the series ever really touch on shades of gray, and if they do there's still an unambiguous good guy that you're playing as.

One of the few things that Fire Emblem does do that's Low Fantasy... except when it doesn't. Granted, those cases are few and far between even in the most recent fire emblem games.

Do I really need to comment on this one?

Fire Emblem is not Low Fantasy no matter how you dice it. We have a trope for what Fire Emblem is, and that's Heroic Fantasy.

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 4th 2018 at 1:01:05 PM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

Magic isn't that prominent in many Fire Emblem games.

Demons only show up in Sacred Stones, outside of the rarely appearing monsters, which are more like servant animals.

More of evil dude trying to conquer the world by siding with dragons.

Also "conquer the world and more likely to be trying to make himself immortal or conquer a few nearby kingdoms." describes the majority of FE antagonists.

Quite a few games touch on shades of grey starting with Fire Emblem Shadow dragon, the NES version even. There are FE games that point out talk about subjects like "bandits are people too."

It depends on your definition of Low Fantasy. Some Fire Emblem games are more low fantasy then others. I'd hesitate to call Awakening Low Fantasy, personally, but I could easily see something like Thracia 776 as Low Fantasy.

It's used in literally every game as a weapon type. That isn't to mention it being constantly used as plot points for evil dudes doing evil things as early as the first game.

Except demons and dragons not being animalistic is why it doesn't fit the trope.

Except touching on shades of gray isn't the same as the setting being shades of gray. FE games are universally idealistic and always have undoubtedly good protagonists that are good guys. That doesn't fit in Low Fantasy.

I literally just listed everything by the definition of Low Fantasy that we're using on tvtropes. If you're just going to ignore our page's definition I think we're done with the conversation.

Edited by EpicBleye on Dec 4th 2018 at 1:12:35 PM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

As mentioned, Tomes and Staves in Fire Emblem are extremely manufactured. They're created by sealing elements in objects, then teaching people to release them.

More then half of the examples on the page have intelligent dragons and demons.

There are Fire Emblem games on the more cynical side of things, see Thracia 776 talking about Cuan's personal failings and Leif's ignorance about how regular people live.

Again 3/4 of the examples currently listed on the Low Fantasy page here, don't fit your definition.