Pathogen: The Infected

Turns out it wasn't really salmonella...?

What are your feelings about Miami?

Some reasons that makes me like it:
- it is in the tropical climate region - tropical diseases have a special place in epidemology for a variety of reasons (some historical, some are connected to the climate - pathogens seem to benefit from wet & hot climates, largely due to the frequency of insects and other animal vectors and also because and most poor regions in the world with low hygiene and public health, so tropical jungles are where we usually expect new, unknown pathogens to originate from;
- tourism and traffic - this is important because of disease traffic and spread. Since Florida is a peninsula connected to land, and also probably the most popular tourist spot not just for foreigners but for other Americans, it makes it easier for a disease to spread to the other states. A busy international airport means that the virus can travel easily from and to other contries. Something that's importnat to me, it is one of the world's biggest ports - seaports are important because that is where the import of animal vectors happens.

It has many other useful institutions too, like a zoo, or the Civic Center which gives home to some fo the best medical and biotech (!) research centers and also things like the Emerging Pathogens Institute.

(Atlanta has some of things, like the climate and an airport, but overall I think I like Miami a lot better. Opinions?)

edited 10th Sep '11 7:31:27 PM by Vree

Eh, Changelings already seized Miami, and that'd make things more than a little crowded. I do like the argument for the tourism and the Emerging Pathogens Institute, but Atlanta has Atlanta International, literally the world's busiest airport, a perfect transfer point for any pathogen looking to hop a flight. Maybe a little reading on Atlanta's history can set things in perspective.

Yeah, sorry, just realized myself that Changeling already booked Miami. So yeah, I'm out of complaints. Atlanta does seem like the best choice of all the possible cities.

So what plans do we have to actually try to playtest any of this?

You know, we should. I just never thought we'd get many people interested at this stage, so I never actually made any plans.

If I had a better grasp on the system, I'd playtest it.

Hive: The Unity xD Lol. I'm finding new interesting homebrew ideas each day.

It starts from the opposite premise as Pathogen: Pathogen works with the slow loss of control and individuality, while Hive takes it away immediately all at once and has the character fight his way to gain back individuality, but there are some similarities and the premise is interesting.

(I have struggled with the possibility of hive minds on occassion before: I have tried to add the option for Lost Ones here in this thread, brought it up in Psychic: The Gifted's topic, pointed out the Larvae in "Night Horrors: The Wicked Dead" which have something similar many times, but it seems just difficult to do for protagonists, since it makes them both overpowered and difficult to roleplay. No wonder that most hive minds are antagonists in fiction. Perhaps they are really only fit to be handled as a different game, if they can be handled at all.)

On a related note, found this Wiki which indexes the most important aspects of every canon Wo D game. Extremely useful if you want an easy oversight about what makes each system tick.

I haven't given up working up on the system either. When I'll have a little more time to learn how to set up a Wiki I might try to make a proper one that everyone who wants to contribute can update (or there's the easy version: we can just use rpg.net's). I really want to make use of the ideas everyone had contributed, and even we are only up to 7 pages there are already many things from what 'I' originally thought would that I have reconsidered.

Since @flyboy brought up playtesting, I'm really wondering what everyone would want in their own Infected campaign. Forget the rules and the rest for a second now, and think, if you'd just want a casual game with just the bare minimums what'd you need? (I am also asking this to see which parts we'd need to be working on more to set up a test game.)

I've been working on bits of the game here and there, which I'll post below (the TV Tropes forum is not very accustomed to lenghty pieces of text, but we have to do with what we have:)

—FUSION-Symptoms as Derangements—

When the Infected's Fusion degrades, the balance between their body and the parasite is starting to break up - the infection starts to behave like a true pathogen, sacrificing the wholeness of its host for its own survival, while the host's body begins to attack itself in an attempt to rid itself from the invader.

This loss of unity manifest itself as Symptoms, signals that the organs and cells do not work so well together anymore. Symptoms replace the Derangements known from other Wo D games.

Derangements and Symptoms remain, to some extent, interchangeable; it is possible to create a virus with primary symptoms of personality changes and madness, for example, and storytellers are encouraged to carry Symptoms over to other Wo D games if they like, and use them as psychosomatic Derangements. A mortal character who suffers a Morality decrease may be able to overcome the stress that it causes emotionally, but her health may still suffer physically.

Players should be advised that Fusion is not Morality: you do not become sicker from the disease because you are a bad person. Storytellers are advised to pay attention to what had caused Fusion loss and decide whether to assign a Symptom or perhaps a Derangement accordingly.

Examples of Symptoms:

Hunger: The character needs to eat more than usual. Mild: Food intake is about 3x as much, and the person gets visibly thinner. Severe: The character needs to eat constantly to avoid taking damage, and looks flesh and bones. The requirements to avoid taking damage from Deprivation (Wo D Rulebook p. 175) is measured in -hours-, not days. (The character will take notice when feeling hungry, even in the middle of the night.)

Taste: The character requires an unusual type of food (eg. fresh meat, certain mushrooms, etc.) Mild: The character finds other types of food disgusting, and has to roll Resolve+Composure to resist eating the food if it is in the victinity if she hasn't eaten it for a while. Severe: The character can not digest normal food; if he can not obtain the special food he'll starve.

Insomnia: The character has trouble sleeping. Mild: The character may have to wait several hours and take repeated Stamina+Resolve rolls (each represents 15 minutes) to fall asleep, and wakes up randomly during the night (forcing him to start rolling again). On the average he needs 1.5x or 2x more time for a good night's sleep than other people. Severe: The character only sleeps half-time (ca. 4 hours) per night. He experiences constant fatigue, hallucinations or double vision. Penalty on all Perception-based roll. Don't forget to add penalties from Fatigue if the character fails to get any sleep one night.

Itching (Formication/Paresthesia): Mild: The character's skin constantly feels as if it is being irritated, causing constant distraction. Severe: The character is actually driven to self-harm, trying to tear off the skin or scratching until her arms are blooded.

(Note: Symptoms are also similar to Derangements in that they are often tied to a certain trigger, usually what has caused them. )

New derangements:

Delusional parasitosis/Münchausen syndrome (non-Infected only): The character believes himself to be infected by the pathogen, even though they are not.

(Now I remember why I wanted a Wiki in the first place, posted here that text looks longer and very difficult to read.)

Fusion sins:

Possible sins against Fusion from different aspects.

- Sins against the body

Neglecting the conditions for physical and mental wellbeing: regular physical activity (exercise), good nutrition, and adequate rest. Postponing to answer a physical need (feeding when hungry, sleeping when tired, warming up when cold). Allowing for sudden drastic physical changes to come to the body (including the use of the Mutation Subversion). Prolonged pain or torture, especially if the character has the power to stop it (eg. holding onto a hot object). Physical damage from any source. Exposure to extreme temperatures. Overeating or malnutrition. Overconsuming alcohol or drugs. Disease: getting sick from exposure to other harmful effects (poison, radiation etc.) or getting infected by another (non-supernatural) pathogen but only if it causes lethal damage (allowing you immune system to develop defense against other pathogens is good). Overworking and cutting sleep (fatigue). Stress (guilt, worry, mentally taxing work etc.), frequent strong emotions.

- Sins against one's Pathogen

Containing your infection rather than spreading it; staying away from humans during infectious periods. Too much human contact risking exposure. Realizing that you are infected. Admitting to being an Infected to humans. Allowing medical examination on your body. Taking medicine, even for different conditions than the Infection. Killing an Infected (including "mercy kills" where the subject is willing). Postponing Metamorphosis [below] or failing to complete it due to interruption. Creating, owning or distributing a vaccine.

- Sins against preservation of species

Not mating with a female where there is an opportunity. Not taking care of one's offspring (even if it is a nonhuman monster). Birth control or termination of pregnancy. Going for three days without social contact.

- Speciesist Morality

Same as regular Morality but all rules apply to Infected rather than humans. The same sins committed against mortals appear at 1 Morality rating higher. (3 levels higher for animals, and 2 levels higher for Chimera.)

-> Now here is what I was thinking: Fusion could be modelled primarily after "sin's against one's Pathogen", while the more severe of the sins against the body would serve as triggers for the Pathogen taking over the body. (This may resemble a bit the Werewolf system, where Kuruth triggers get milder with the increase of one's Harmony.)

edited 27th Sep '11 2:05:33 PM by Vree

"Not mating with a female where there is an opportunity" needs rewording, unless all P Cs are male.

Hey so, I kinda didn't pay attention to this thread for a while. Kinda settled for dumping everything I had and letting y'all futz around with it. I figure it wouldn't hurt to get back to helping out, so if y'all have a need for me, hit me on the slant.

I do wish I had a plan ready for how we can utilize everyone's talents the best but I really don't have one?

I think for the moment how everyone can help the most is by adding to the discussion, and by writing up stuff and commenting on each other's stuff. People have given some excellent ideas already, and I haven't forgotten them (even those I argued) and whenever I tried to rethink things I tried to include them in some shape or form. But you needn't depend on me for that either. I'm admittedly quite happy to just work what I envision, and only come here for feedback, ^^; but you do not need to put up with that. Don't be afraid to not only post material and suggestions on anything Pathogen or body horror related, but even grab a topic and claim it as your own.

Here's something to help with that: I set up a Wiki (I decided to give Wikidots a chance for now). If it helps you you can go there, add a new Wiki page for anything you're currently working on (I only ask that you add your name and a link on the first page), and post a link to it in this topic.

For now I'm focusing on putting my own stuff that I have lying around in notes and .txt files into a comprehensible format, but that should not affect any discussion going on there.

@flyboy menioned potentially setting up a playtest group which I 100% support, but my own personal stance is that I want more material to be written down and decided on before I try something like that. But yeah, if you feel like running a game yourself, it'd be excellent too.

Wow, this is really chugging along. That's so cool! Now I have to join the wiki and watch that, too...

Wow there a wiki up and running? Vree I'm impressed.

I don't think you guys need it, but I could take a crack at writing some flash fiction for areas where you need to illustrate the theme or mood of the game. I could also help with the fluff for our world.

Please do. Right now it's just me and @flyboy actually working on things. What I'd like to encourage is for everyone to step up and develop their own ideas.

Example:

• Flyboy mentioned hunter organizations and a city (Atlanta).
• Nightmare Work and Morkais made suggestions for systems for infected powers.
• Wandering brought up a a "broodlord" Subversion (among other things).
• pkfan brought up stuff to round up the existing Adam Thaxton template.

It'd be great to see more on all of these topics.

Onto business:

I have added an alt system to the Wiki ("Mutation system"), if you want to judge please check it out. It's a work in progress, so don't expect anything great yet. The main idea was trying to base Infected powers around an extended roll with a flexible time scale, so that you can have a long-lasting transformation that lends itself to good stories, but with the possibility of quick and cinematic transformations as well.

@flyboy wrote about some stuff I thought were worth discussing:

ATP zombies: I have always wondered how to handle this. - I never really made a differentiation between ATP zombies and Chimera myself, because the original draft doesn't give much to go on with either. At least it seemed to me that they were just human variants, and I didn't want to limit those to just the "undead".

You could make "animate dead" a pathogen strain's trait. Or maybe even an X-splat. But, most "scientific zombies" are not actually dead, and also I don't want to repeat Wo D: Antagonists' take on the zombie apocalypse scenario.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way; ideas?

Here's one from me where I try to unite them with "Lost Ones" (another bit I just didn't know what to do with); give me yours.

The name Chimera: I've been using it both for Infected animals (as the Thaxton draft suggests) and a generic term for Infected monsters similar to "neo-mitochondrial creature" or 'bio-organic weapon'. It is not a bad term; its essential meaning is a creature composed from the parts of two different organisms, which I guess is not a bad name for creatures merged badly with the parasite. But the name is just so overused thorough the Wo D books, and I also feel that a game like Pathogen should stick with the scientific meaning of a word that has a meaning in genetics.

Well, this one's not a biggie, anyway. I'v got no real issue with it.

Fear of Infection: Here's a good topic. Yes, the infected "infect" - it goes with the job description. But you need to be very careful if you want to allow it. Overdo it and you've got an Infected "Disquiet" where the Infected must remove himself from human society out of fear of passing on the disease to everyone he knows; make it too easy to control and it makes them no different from a vampire.

There are ways to deal with this - maybe we could the transmission method - a character who only passes on the disease through sex will certainly feel disadvantaged and yet remains completely playable. Or maybe Infected only infect in their mutated form. Or maybe there are only periods when it is in effect - say a Chimera grows in the Infected for months before it escapes trrough some orifice as the host watches in horror. Maybe it likes to spread so it will not infect those close to another Infected. Maybe only Chimera can pass on the disease, and maybe even only some of them. I don't know.

Ultimately, I want infection to be a possibility and a risk, but not such a strong risk that the Infected would want to cut all human ties.

While it make no sense biologically whatsoever, maybe you coudl o with something similar as the Adam draft suggested: the Infected only infects plants, and then the virus works its way up, from plants, to humans, to new Infected. It makes sense if there are fewer infected humans and only a handful of true Infected. Again, NO sense pathologically, but a lot easier from a game standpoint.

(Here's maybe a bit of sci-fi fluff to explain it away: the Pathogen is like a multihost parasite that has to live in a sequence of different hosts (Euhaplorchis californiensis, anyone?), and continues to evolve its hosts so that it can grow better as well...Yyeah, doesn't make much sense does it? <:B)

Spread of the disease: I think we agree on how this would generally look like. It does not neccessarily start with humans. Maybe it begins with animals and plants.

When the parasite manages to find a suitable host, it mutates them into more capable organisms, but it also drives them to behave more aggressively. They quickly kill off all of their natural predators and rival species in the region (I've got this great mental picture of a cornered rat suddenly activating Mutation and gobbling up a cat or ferret), up to the point where even humans start to take notice - maybe a farmer gets up one morning to notice that somehow all the fields are red flowers.

There'd probably be a patient zero, someone who was the first one to be cursed/infected/etc. with the disease or the first one to bring it to the region. Patient Zero makes a good storytelling tool either as background or something that the players discover in-game through investigation.

Not sure how the disease learns to "hop" species. I'm saying that it can infect almost anything, but it has to learn how to. (And there'll be always be some species and some specimen who are simply immune.) I've tried making a "custom pathogen maker" once, maybe picking that up that idea could help here?...

Anyway, looking forward to comments. Please, if you've got anything to show, anything you'd like to write, or someone to write, do it, because we can use all the input we can get.

Does bumping this tread out of interest count as input?

It certainly is appreciated, but don't you have any tip on about what it is you'd like to see?

umm... well some people are bond to be naturally immune. Have we touched on that?

I touched upon a Minor splat of "Marys" named for Typhoid Mary, who were asymptomatic but still created ATP and Aura, does that count?

Oh and sorry for the long gaps of time where I didn't show, but I like everything that's been said! I do intend to work on the power-structure a bit and think about where I want to place the Infected in the ranks of power. I'm also still considering whether or not powers should upgrade as you buy more of a combo (IE: Rank 1 power gets stronger when you buy Rank 2, etc)

F@&#. Just lost my thoughtful and well-composed post to a power

outage. Let's see if I can rewrite it from memory. :p

Ah, you mean The Immune, right? After some thinking I think it may work best as a Merit. A five-dot one. Why so pricy? TV mmunity is supposed to be special, usually possessed by only a single person, and an immune character can potentially wreck a whole chronicle. Becoming a Carrier is cheaper - say, four dots.

Naturally Immune - 5-dot merit

The character is immune to all forms of the disease. Such characters can make important allies - or the worst enemies. Immune status also gives you a bonus on vaccine research rolls (see below).

Carrier - 4-dot merit

The character can never catch the virus, but if she ever gets infected, her body "stores" it and passes it on to the next person the first chance it gets. The character has no control over when this happens. The Carrier merit gives no bonus on creating a vaccine. (It may be possible to perform a research on creating more carriers, instead, but Infected can just meddle with their own strains for the same effect.)

[Creating a vaccine:

Dice Pool: Intelligence + Medicine + equipment Action: Extended (each roll takes one week; 35–50 successes needed for an unknown virus; for character's strains the target number is 5 x Resonance of the creator)

Roll Results: - Dramatic Failure: The character becomes infected with the pathogen. - Failure: The character makes no progress. - Success: The character makes progress. - Exceptional Success: The character finds a clue about the central nature of the virus that allows him to start research on a related pathogen strain.

Achieving the required number of successes synthesizes enough vaccine to inoculate five people. (It is possible - and recommended - that several researchers cooperate on the rolls, but one project always yields five doses, so mass producing it requires working alone or in separate groups.)

Having already created the exact same vaccine before, or having the (deciphered) notes of someone who did, or having an Immune character present makes the roll a rote action.

The vaccine prevents infection in anyone treated (effectively granting them the Immune merit), but it only works on people who have not come into contact with the virus yet. It does not stop the spread of the virus in those already affected, nor turn Infected and Chimera back to normal.]

All that brings us back to the infection rules. Actually, I must thank you that you for forcing me to go back to thinking about them. I've thought about it for five days. and I've found a good solution. In fact, a whole new perspective.

I was going on the lines of the Vampire rules. And then I thought of Wo D: Inferno, and it all clicked.

Check this:

Infected have TWO Willpower scores. The first is the character's own, based on Stamina + Composure. The other is a separate rating called Parasite Power, which represents the influence of the parasite. PP is equal to Resonance. (Chimeras' are equal to their rank.)

At any given moment, the character's -current- Wilpower/PP ratings decide who has more influence over the player's body. If there is a clash of wills, the host and the pathogen get a penalty/bonus on contested rolls depending on this difference. A character who lets his Willpower drop too low risks handing over control to the parasite.

You're saying I'm disadvanting the Infected, right? I'm limiting the Willpower they can spend? But take a look at this:

An Infected character can spend Parasite Power as if it was Willpower if his actions play out with the wants of the parasite.

What counts as satisfying for the stowaway is affected by the character's Fusion rating.

A low Fusion parasite will likely demand actions that'd count as Fusion sins (Morality violations) at higher Fusion levels not just because it and its host are more antagonistic towards each other, but because it also doesn't understand its host (and humans in general) and does not see how stuff like not immediately satisfying a Vice or hiding a mutation in public are important.

On the other hand, a high Fusion character's parasite is easily satisfied with simple actions. Such a character does not fear Willpower loss, not only because it can spend PP more freely to put his own Willpower on top again, but also because his and the parasite's actions do not differ much at this level anyway.

In effect, a high Fusion character can have -double- the Willpower to spend - if it can satisfy the often conflicting wants of the parasite, and his obligation to his humanity. Trying to find that balance - well, that is exactly what Fusion is about.

This is a completely great system and I can't believe how much a genius I am. :p

Now, back to the infections.

An Infected who chooses to pass on the disease by his own will spends a Willpower -dot-. If, however, he spread it against his will, like during a takeover, then the dot comes from his Parasite Power. If he can find a situation where both him and the parasite want it, the player can choose either. Obviously everyone will deplete their Parasite Power first - not only is that more difficult to spend from, but it allows the player to gain back control and more access to their regular Willpower score.

[Consili[or whatever they are called...the group of Infected who primarily seek a cure] technique:

The Infected can force the body to release a contagion which is then sealed away in a vial or other carrier. This decreases Parasite Power by one dot, but also diminishes the parasite's influence over the character. Since this group tends to have low Fusion due to their constant attempts to remove the infection, they gain more advantage than disadvantage from this and it is a widely used method to the point of reducing PP to 0.

If a container like this is opened or broken it will infect the first person as if the disease was passed on normally. In addition, the container gains the same detection range by Chimera as a Resonance-1 character, which scales up if more containers are stored in one place where their ranges can overlap. For example, three containers in the same room have the detection range of a Resonance-3 character: 40 feet.]

Chimera spread the disease the exact same way, also starting with their PP dots first. Alternatively, Chimera may not enjoy the same advantages as the Infected (not having the same level of symbiosis): a Chimera uses his Willpower pool normally, and can onyl spend PP to pass on the infection. Chimera usually infect through scratch and bite, but a chimeric plant may release a spore cloud containing the virus and so on.

When exactly the Chimera passes on the virus is up to the storyteller, but typical cases would be:
- when a Chimera is cornered or its life is threatened (the virus recognizes its fear and tries to spread itself to anyone possible since it may not get another chance);
- if an attck from the Chimera is an Exceptional Success.

Chimera can also raise their rank by being re-infected.

OK, so much for today (I wanted to write more, like about the progress of the infection ([single Sta+Res roll to avoid infection, then periodical rolls until the virus takes over, Dramatic Failure turns the character instantly, Success gives you more time, Exceptional Success may make you Infected]) but I'll leave that for another day.

Also @NW we should totally get together to talk more on the power trees. So many options, it'd be great to hear your solution.

edited 17th Nov '11 2:47:11 PM by Vree

I'm still working with the idea of Effect+Method=Power, but I have two ways to do this. The first is that we develop 5 first dot powers for each combo. You can buy any power in the combo whenever you'd like. As you buy more powers in the combo, all the other powers grow more powerful, creating a sort of net of powers that grow with you. The second way is simply having Effect+Method=Power and making 1-5 ranked powers for each combo. For both methods I have the idea of 'Catches' that cause the Pathogen to activate the powers without the player's consent. I looked over your mutation powers and I... I dunno, I don't like how it feels, it doesn't seem quite right for the Infected. I also read your bit on the Lost Ones... I don't think there should be ANY chance for a True Cure of any kind. Vaccines can be used as weapons against the Infected, but never really help them. The Lost Ones TRIED to cure themselves, but Oops, that didn't fucking work right, now you're little better.

What are our current Symptoms, by the by?

edited 17th Nov '11 4:40:10 PM by NightmareWork

I agree with you on that, a cure, while widely seeked, is about as likely to be found in a story as Golconda or the New Dawn. If it can be created at all it probably requires a high Fusion score on the subject's side, a researcher with mastery in Medicine, Science and the Occult, only enough for one person, and can only be tried once.

Vaccines are a bit different as they only create people who can not be infected. Which I think is good. There has to be something to balance out the fact that you can spread it so easily.

This is how I imagine the separate strains' mechanic right now:

You can start spreading the disease at an early Resonance level -say, 2. You are forced to spread it with Resonance 6 and above. (The higher, the more regularly.)

You have two "strains": the first you have received when you were infected yourself, the second you receive when you choose your prestige class. The prerequirement is Resonance 4. The virus mutates, and neither it nor you are quite the same anymore.

Once you have chosen your prestige class, all Chimeras created from that point gain the aesthetic you picked. So, if you went with the "zombie outbreak" theme, then you will create Chiemra that look like that and have your prestige class' advantage (eg. "only truly dies if brain is destroyed").

Only single strains can be vaccinated against. Now, I could make a rule that your virus mutates and can infect everyone again every time you gain a new Resonance level, but I don't think we should do that. If you've been foolish enough to cause a wide scale outbreak, and everyone in the city is now immune to your virus - too bad, out of luck, you can move on to the next city and try it there again.

Now don't forget that most Infected likely do not -want- to spread the disease. So they might even facilitate the creation of a vaccine against their strain to give it to friends themselves. (Also remember that, unless mass produced, a single researcher needs a lot of time to make vaccines, can only make a very small number of doses, needs a sample from the strain and only vaccinates against that strain.) And with the number of Infected around there is no telling that the zombie outbreak in November won't be followed by a mind-virus in December and a bugman-virus in January as each Infected can have their own strain.

A disease may spread from city to city through Chimera (again, creating them assumes consent on the Infected's side at early levels, and an Infected may even hunt them down at higher levels to halt the spread at higher levels) or it may mean that the Infected is moving between cities. If the illness is beaten, that either means that someone finally made the connection between Infected and disease and captured or killed him, or the Infected settled in one place in an already vaccinated area or somewhere away from mortals.

This only affects high level Infected, of course. Low level Infected don't have the virulence to cause epidemics of this magnitude, and only spread their parent's strain anyway.

Now, prestige classes/strains...I have simply went and based on them on everyone's favourite B-movies. Here are a few examples.

• Ungeziefer - "Gregor" (inspiration: The Metamorphosis, The Fly, Bug Boy, Alien, District 9):
  The guys who devolve into insect-like creatures

• Machnie men (inspiration: Tetsuo series, Akira, The Man That Was Used Up, the Master (Fallout)):
  Infected Who can form symbiosis with technology, until they look more cyborg than man.

• Melting men (inspiration: The Incredible Melting Man, The Human Vapour, The Blob):
  The boys with the melting organs and skin. Can break down their body into protozoan sludge (matches the original "Slime Body" subversion).

• Bio-zombies (inspiration: any zombie game or movie ever):
  Guys with over-active regeneration who can even recover from mortal wounds.

• Mystical zombies (inspiration: classic zombie movies):
  Guys whose souls are drawn to the spirit realms who animate their bodies through their soul. Have an affinity with other undead like ghosts and vampires.

What of the Symptoms? No idea. Vectors are definitely not B-splats anymore, I think we've had enough feedback on that. Symptoms, no clue. You still definitely have them, but whether they are sub-splats, or stuff like Catches, I have no idea. I think we agreed that Paedomorphosis'd be out (I'll try to get around to writing an Unborn section though), but the rest are fine. I have tried to ignore the splat questions to be honest and try to see the big picture. Also like with mutations/Subversions I wanted to try giving a bit more leeway in customizing your advantages/disadvantages, but maybe going back to the 5-limit will be the way to go, I don't know.

Mutations...Are something I'm still working; it's fine if you diss it, since I'm really just toying arounf with options at this point.

Here was another variant I made after that, based on an idea on another forum: use the power point pool (ATP) not as points to spend but as a constant pool you can commit to different abilities (this is similar to Genius' "binding Mania"). Example: You have 10 ATP[/Biomass/whatever...] points. You can create a bony carapace (6 points) and a claw weapon (3 dots). The next turn, you can choose to lose them, and redirect those points into tentacles (2 points each) and wings (5 points) instead.

Dice pool: related Attribute + Resonance (extended, target is the mutation's level; each roll takes 1 turn)

Dramatic Failure: An uncontrollable mutation with a rank equal to the number of succeses accumulated is let loose, chosen by the storyteller. Failure: No progress. Success: You manifest the power when you reach the neccessary number of successes. Exceptional Success: You manifest the power and still have an action to spend in the same turn; you can continue to manifest more powers or do something else.

I know that these ideas change the landscape a bit, but I do not neccessarily want to get rid of the Subversions either at all - for example, adding the Parasite Power as above would give you another source to spend from meaning that powers can be operated by Willpower alone (similar to "Second Sight"'s or "Inferno"'s psyhics and possessed.)