The Wheel of Time

So, I've started on the Shadow Rising, and... I think this is the book where some of the more commonly cited problems come in? I'm through disk 10 of 34, and I'm just getting to the point where characters leave Tyr. Most of the plots are interesting, but... Faile. Oy gevalt. Her fighting with Perrin is getting more attention than the actual journey and it's so... boring. I'm not entertained by it, nor am I invested in any particular outcome it might have. I just want this subplot to be over.

I disliked practically everything involving Faile. Her whole character, indeed, her whole nation, is built upon the idea of conflict for conflict's sake. Jordan apparently thought all friction was sexy, but a lot of readers often found it tiresome.

The biggest consequence of the tainting of Saidin and the caging of the Dark One was apparently that nobody ever emotionally matures past 14.

Also now reading Shadow Rising, and I agree that a lot of the series most notable problems are starting here. It takes almost 300 pages for the plot to start, and Faile, Egwene, and Moiraine are completely insufferable. Elayne is getting there. I have enjoyed the crew of old Aiel women who tell everyone to shut up and act like adults, though.

Are we sure the Dark One didn't taint Saidar?

Moiraine is significantly more tolerable because she's supposed to be The Friend Nobody Likes with everybody acting accordingly, and her do whatever you have to do to save the world except for trusting anybody is generally more understandable than... whatever the hell Faile is doing.

And I liked Elayne up until now, but giving the theifcatcher crap while refusing to acknowledge her own screwups isn't helping.

And then I get scenes like Matt meeting the foxes or Rand learning the history of the Aiel, and I'm reminded that Jordan could be a very good writer. I see why this series inspires such complex feelings.

Importantly, around the start of book four there's a scene where Rand talks to Moiraine and more or less tells her that they're on the same side, they all want to save the world, but if she wants to actually get anything done then she has to cut out the condescending mysterious Aes Sedai "I know better you just do what I say peons" horseshit and actually tell people things like a normal human being. And she does, she swallows her pride and starts treating Rand like an adult and they start making progress. Which is probably why she exits stage soon after so that we can introduce Cadsuane as her replacement so that we're spared from the apparently tension-destroying conceit of competent people communicating like adults and instead we can have another round of Aes Sedai bullshit only an order of magnitude worse.

Edited by Ninety on Feb 3rd 2021 at 5:48:35 AM

Fuck Cadsuane.

That is all.

Having now finished the book, you can't imagine how delighted I was to see that the second Moiraine decided to be reasonable, Nynave's pointless conflict wheel decided to go into overdrive.

Also, do the books every explain what Faile's deal is, or is 'Tsundere to the point of physical violence' something that Jordan just thinks is cute?

"Tonight's episode: The Writer's Barely-Disguised Fetish" might as well be the tagline for WOT, yeah.

It's been a long time since I read the books, and I didn't read the series all the way through, but I seem to recall an explanation being given for Faile's behaviour.

In short, and if I recall it correctly: In her culture, it's expected that men see their romantic partners as equals. This is expected to manifest as arguing, on the basis that they see their partners as able to hold their own.

Perrin, on the other hand, comes from a culture in which men are expected to treat women gently.

To Faile, this treatment thus comes off as condescending: from her perspective, he's treating her as weak.

I'm not a fan of the idea that treating one's partner as an equal involves being belligerent towards them, but there is at least more of an explanation than just having her be tsundere.

Of course, the above is a Watsonian explanation, let me note.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Feb 4th 2021 at 9:11:45 PM

Yeah, what Perrin's culture views as consideration, Faile's views as condescending. Interesting that the onus of understanding and adaptation falls entirely upon Perrin and, as I've mentioned before, Faile doesn't even consider, or apparently care, that someone from another nation might not understand her customs.

Jordan was at pains to portray the intersection of cultures. He'd point out, for instance, how different nations knew the same songs or stories in slightly different forms. He'd also point out how bizarre one nation's customs frequently appear to another. Lots of characters engage in some pretty extreme cultural chauvinism.

Which characters don´t engage in cultural chauvinism? Basicly everyone in a position of power in their culture thinks everyone else would and should automaticaly respect their authority, while they don´t have to give a shit about anyone of another culture (also gender). That was one of the most frustrating points of the series for me....

Rand, Perrin, and Mat always seemed (to me, anyway) more simply bewildered by cultural differences than culturally chauvinistic. But yeah, I think you're right for the most part.

Faile is trying for the most part, she thinks she’s acting normal and being accomodating but Perrin can sense her emotions. So he thinks there’s a problem when she feels upset and gets upset himself while she’s just trying to manage her own emotions and doesn’t understand why he’s getting upset all of a sudden. It’s less culture issues and more being an empath issues.

I have to say, one of my favorite moments in the whole series is when Tam Al'Thor, being suspended in the air by the One Power, calmly calls Cadsuane a bully to her face.

And she absolutely is. The moments where anyone calls out Cadsuane on her bullshit are few and far between, but invariably excellent.

Okay, through disk 27 (or was it 28?) of The Shadow Rising. At 43 hours long, this is by far the longest audiobook I've ever listened to, being only two hours shorter than Literature/IT.

Perrin's subplot has improved since Faile has set aside the Conflict Ball for a moment. Now the big issue I have is with Nynaeve and Elaine's plot.

Okay, they didn't ask for Jewelin and Thom to come with them. But they're going into an unknown city with a dozen dark sisters waiting for them and god knows what else. If somebody's there to help you, work with them. Don't spend all of your time glowering while they're trying to help you. Take a page from Siuan's book and take whatever hounds you can get.

And it really doesn't help that the two of them come off as the Duning-Kruger effect incarnate. Neither of them wants to admit that either Jewelin, who knows how to work the lumpenproletariat, or Thom, who knows how to play the Game of Houses, could be useful in tracking people down. Instead, they focus on their own brilliant plan of wandering around Tanchiko until they run into one of the black sisters. While wearing outfits they think will help them blend right in, which one of the other narrators confirms makes them stick out like crazy.

Okay, Elaine did acknowledge that the two of them were useful... while talking to Nynaeve. Which hasn't dissuaded them from treating them like crap. And this is in weird contrast with the fact they seem to need about five seconds to develop an affinity for the women they meet.

Here's hoping Moggy will feed them some humble pie.

Having only read up through the Shadow Rising, most of the women's behavior seems to be 'do something stupid, suffer consequences, get mad at Perrin/Mat/whoever.' I'm informed this stops at some point. I hope it's soon.

I don’t want to lie to you two…

So I won’t.

And it’s actually spelled ‘Juilin’, but I get why you’d go with that if it’s from the audiobook.

Edited by SCMof2814 on May 7th 2021 at 12:46:43 AM

I'm through the first of the book's climaxes. The men had their own degree of pointless competition with each other, so the Conflict Ball is not exclusive to women in this series.

Given the way people feel when Channeling and Nynaeve's mental block only letting her channel when she's angry, she basically inadvertently created a system in which she rewards herself for getting angry. I wonder if that contributed to her developing her persnickety personality.

Which of the Ajah do you like?

Well, Black is definitely getting the most focus...

In all honesty, at this point in the series I don't feel like I have a good idea of what most of the Ajahs are like. Reds are fulfilling a role that's necessary, but their ranks seem to be full of bullies. Blue is supposed to be focused on the "big picture", as represented by Moirane, a character I rather like. She stays focused on what's actually important, characters react appropriately and call her out on her flaws, and her motives are generally understandable. Brown is focused on knowledge for the sake of knowledge. Verin is the main representative thus far, and if nothing else she's pretty entertaining, especially Kate Reading's performance of her. White is about being The Spock, which could be boring if the writing doesn't go into a lot of depth about them as characters. Green's supposed to be "the battle Ajah" and are more likely to bond Warders than the others. Or bond multiple Warders. Or marry their Warders. There's a shoujo anime premise in there somewhere. It sounds like they could be interesting, especially since it looks like Shadowspawn attacks will be increasing across the series. Yellow is... I think where they put all the boring Aes Sedai?

Side note: were the Ajahs part of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legend, or were they only created sometime after the Breaking?

It’s a post-breaking thing. In the AOL, Ajahs are more like temporary task forces to solve problems.

Edited by SCMof2814 on May 6th 2021 at 11:13:11 PM

I always liked that detail.

It's neat and fits in super well with the whole corruption of legends theming.

As I recall, ajah in the Old Tongue basically meant group. They started off as informal factions within the White Tower, then they became official. Then someone from the Ajah that would become Brown noticed that there were seven Ajahs, and seven colours on the portal stones, so let's colour-code them!

Ajahs in a nutshell:

• Red: Eliminate male channelers. The nature of their work tends to attracy misandrists.
• Green: Fight the Dark One. The nature of their work means spending more time than usual around men, so attracts romantic types.
• Yellow: Healing.
• Brown: Preserve knowledge.
• White: Philosophy and abstract ideas.
• Blue: Political interference, sort of a magic CIA. Their role is to advance the White Tower's political aims.
• Grey: Judges and mediators. They also advance the White Tower's political aims.
• Black: Evil. Does not exist.