World Of Warcraft

I think the only thing older would probably be Silithus, which got untouched by Cataclysm afaik because of time constraints, and if you want to be picky, Molten Core is even older, being the first raid that's never been retouched (all other Classic dungeons at least had their quests moved into dungeon entrances to accommodate the group finder).

Okay got a month free thanks to that token, and started 9.2. How do I see the Sylvanas judgement?

Do I have to clear the storyline as well as fight the Jailer in the raid?

Sylvanas's Judgement is the final chapter of the Zereth Mortis campaign. It's a fair bit of content, but there's no timegating anymore so you can run through it all as quickly as possible.

Not sure what hard pre-reqs there are for starting the Zereth Mortis Campaign. You might have to unlock Korthia if you haven't done that, but you'll just have to unlock it, not do the whole campaign.

You get the quest to kill the Jailer after you unlock the path to the Sepulcher during the Zereth Mortis Campaign, but this is not required to progress the campaign further. When you reach the Judgement of Sylvanas the story will assume the Jailer has been defeated regardless of whether or not you personally participated and play the raid end cinematic before sending you to witness the judgement of Sylvanas.

Edited by Falrinn on May 19th 2022 at 4:52:27 AM

Gosh story telling in this game is such a nightmare, you have to have whatever is happening in the open world quest line not interfere with the continuity of what takes place in the raid because you have no idea what order players are going to complete things.

In that case, you just assume that some other players defeated Anduin and then the Jailer. It is an MMO, after all, but if they didn't do that players would be locked out of certain time-gated content based on whether they beat the raid, and that's antithetical to how Blizzard wants it to work.

I mean I tried to do the Sylvanas fight but it's apparent Alliance numbers aren't what they used to be, waited 52 minutes for the Q to pop, then one of the tank dropped out, so we awkwardly waited for 10 minutes so a new Tank and new healer showed up, then failed the encounter.

Oh jeez, I hope Raid finder for the Jailer is better. I cleared Denathrius before though with no problems.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 19th 2022 at 8:57:11 AM

I remember that was what they were doing too, if I remember correctly the Legion and BFA epilogues required you to beat Argus and N'zoth on at least LFR difficulty.

Skipping that for Shadowlands was an extremely good idea, especially for Venthyr, who if waiting for LFR would have been stuck waiting nearly four weeks later than everyone else to continue their campaign since the halfway point leads off after Castle Nathria had been cleared.

Yeah I remember that, it was pretty awkward to hear Sire Denathrius was defeated off-camera.

I just pretend defeating the old raidbosses changes time so that you were there when they were defeated.

There's a reason WoW's the only MMO to my knowledge that locks major plot events and resolutions behind raids. Because the other major MMOs have realized how alienating that can be to casuals.

In my ideal world I'd probably have raids have a story mode that unlocks as soon as the raid does.

Much smaller group sizes, greatly simplified boss encounters, superfluous bosses skipped, few rewards outside of being able to complete the raid quests.

However I do think it's fair to acknowledged that the situation has improved significantly over the years, and even within Shadowlands itself. At least LFR exists now even if the unlock times are prohibitively slow, so you don't have to be part of an organized raid guild to have a hope of seeing the end of the story, and in patch 9.1/9.2 the campaigns were designed so they fully progress and make sense whether or not you complete the raid.

Edited by Falrinn on May 20th 2022 at 8:29:06 AM

It's certainly a strength of 9.2 and 8.3 that the Sylvanis plot is largley detached from the raid plot.

I think the story versions of raids you describe is exactly what Chromie time needs.

Raids formated like the intro dungeon in Exiles Reach, where you and who ever else are following NP Cs.

I may be tired from work, but I just thought of something, something that’s funny and nice at the same time. :) I remember when my friend Max was a member of my old guild, Arcane Destiny, he said it would be cool if you could play as dragon people like in EverQuest. It may have taken a while, but it looks like he’s getting his wish. ;)

People on roleplaying servers have been playing dragons for 17 years! It's going to make so many people very happy.

Meanwhile my dragon character quietly whistles in the background as this new race of creatures who are dragons and aren't afraid to show it lets him slip even deeper into cover.

Edited by NaraNumas on May 22nd 2022 at 5:32:55 AM

So some lore discussion on Warlock fel magic.

A lot of it is using death to fuel their magic, using souls to power their more powerful spells and summons, and even spells to burn a target's soul.

But does Fel Magic actually cause a cessation of existence? Say you use up a soul gem's victim, or drain the life out of a group of Draenei prisoners to power a portal, all of that is described as using souls to fuel the spell, is it all used up? Does the soul cease to exist or is it an Elder Scrolls Black gem situation where their soul once used up goes to the afterlife? Albeit a pretty damned one.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 25th 2022 at 5:03:13 AM

Using a soul as Fel energy utterly destroys it.

That's what made the Burning Legion's Soul Engines particularly ghastly, considering how many souls they used up.

Edited by M84 on May 25th 2022 at 7:19:04 PM

Playable warlocks don't cause cessation of existance because their soul gems only have tiny fragments of souls inside of them, not an entire soul.

As far as the Burning Legion's use of souls goes, cessation is implied however. One of the world quests in Legion shows that their ships are powered with souls which eventually whither and disappear over time.

This is also presumably why playable Warlocks can't perform the literally world shattering magic of antagonist Warlocks — they're not using enough souls to power their shit.

Well Sargeras's plan was to wipe out the universe and hope the next one is better so fel magic causing a cessation of existence on the victims would help with the first part.

Yeah was wondering if that applied to playable Warlocks, like the more I learn about the fel the cooler it is, but also wonder why anyone using this would be heroic at all with all the soul draining, environmental pollution, and corruption of user.

I guess it makes sense the Players can't drain all the victim's soul but we learn in Shadowlands that even pieces of a soul can be alive and individuals.

Or maybe only the Jailer's magic can do something like what happened to Sylvanas and Uther.

Lore-wise, I know that playable Warlocks operate on the principle of Pay Evil unto Evil, but my Druid really shouldn't be cool with consuming Healthstones or going through Summoning Portals, knowing that a portion of a living soul was used to power them.

I suppose this sort of thing is inevitable in a universe where souls are both currency and power. Heck, the Shadowlands runs on anima, which is literally soul energy.

Edited by Fighteer on May 25th 2022 at 8:27:20 AM

This is why on most roleplaying servers most Warlocks will be living undercover pretending to be something else.

I half-jokingly use vampire rules for my warlock to avoid the 'hmmm''s about cessation of existence, which kinda existentially bothers me as a trope (part of the reason I was a little chilly towards Shadowlands).

You only take "as much of the soul" as to not deny it an afterlife, like how a vampire would only take "as much of a person's blood" to not kill them via anemia. So you kill them, but you don't KILL them, in the Warlock's case.

Edited by NaraNumas on May 25th 2022 at 8:03:51 AM

Considering the Fel is pretty distinct, even it's fire magic, I wonder how effective pretending to be a fire mage would be in-universe.

I know Gul'dan new backstory has him as a Warlock pretending to be a Shaman to infiltrate the Shadowmoon clan, but considering Shamanism revolves around spirits granting you magic, wouldn't said spirits be able to tell the other members Gul'dan isn't a Shaman? Or an actual Shaman like Ner'zhul being able to tell Gul'dan isn't a Shaman because his magic is different? Also the fact that the Elements in the Throne rejected him might also be a red flag the next time Ner'zhul visited it.

I like Gul'dan's Legion backstory but it should have stayed AU Draenor. I feel him being the far more power hungry and evil apprentice in Rise of the Horde made him interesting as a baddie.

Yeah I get the existential horror of the Cessation of Existence trope and Warlock players might be a bit uncomfortable with the idea, (heck this trope is also the reason why a friend of mine refused to play Reaper in XIV since it's basically feeding souls/aether to a demon for power.)

But with that in mind, the fact that the souls of the enemies we kill ARE in Shadowlands does suggest we don't do that to them as Warlocks.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 25th 2022 at 9:26:12 AM

It seems like it would be hard to conceal Warlock magic as Shamanism. "The elements totally gave me eerie purple lightning that revitalizes me by draining the life from the target's body as they scream in agony. Here, eat this healing gem. The sickly green glow is Nature magic."

I suppose the denizens of Azeroth and Draenor don't all have access to the rulebooks the way that players do, but still...

At least player Warlocks don't use Fel magic, which would be really hard to justify as "turning the enemy's power against them".

As for Shadowlands, I find very disturbing the idea that many of the beings we fight are literal souls, or powered by souls, and in destroying them we cause complete Cessation of Existence. The implication is that such creatures are beyond salvation, having been tormented to the point where their identity is all but gone, but still...

Edited by Fighteer on May 25th 2022 at 9:19:11 AM

Honestly, if I had to come up with a reason for why, say a Draenei Paladin had to accept a health stone or soul jar revive is because they trust said Warlock.

Yeah like I said, fel magic is very distinct, and even destruction Warlocks still have spells like corruption and life drain. No way you can pass that off as arcane magic or Shamanism at all. At least Chronicles gave an excuse that Kil'jaeden ordered Gul'dan not to use fel magic when infiltrating the Shadowmoon clan but Shamanism is a pretty pact based class and the Spirits should be able to tell that Gul'dan is corrupted as well as having intense hatred in his heart which was why he was rejected in the first place. But he's somehow able to fool Ner'zhul and pass off his fel magic in his studies as Shamanism? Yeah that stretches belief.

I think it's just better off for heroic Warlocks to advertise themselves as Warlocks instead of pretending to be fire mages. Might get allies willing to work with you.