>Start thread for MS Paint Adventures

These next battles had better be freaking awesome for all of the build-up they're getting.

Either that or such a big anticlimax that it it wraps around back into being epic.

Also, it might just be because I haven't reread act 6 in forever but didn't Jade only go Grimbark in the first place when the Condensce was using her animal control powers to mess with her head? If HIC is too distracted to control Jade, I didn't think there's be any reason why Jade would turn evil. Unless there was some other factor at work, which is entirely possible.

You know, this plan would work better if Vriska just left the control of the ghost army to Meenah (I mean, how many people do you need to throw a legendary weapon at him?) and stayed in B2 to put jade to sleep again in case things went south. Plus pull her weight as an incredibly powerful god tier.

But no, she has to fight the final villain herself even if she admits the plan doesn't involve fighting him directly.

edited 31st Mar '16 10:57:35 AM by NinjaDragon

@J-Teeth: Multi-tasking is something they were being cautious about.

@Gil and WMG: Wait, was Terezi supposed to Godtier? was that where she was going before the Remem8er me flash? I thought she was just giving Dave time to talk it over with Dirk.

edited 31st Mar '16 11:06:26 AM by DrPsyche

I vaguely remember Gil thought godtiering without dying could be possible, and that TZ achieved it with that Mindy thing. You better ask him more details. But now, it looks more like a true self thing, by getting original TZ's memories.

So I skipped almost literally everything between when I last posted, and now.

@Red, and the consciousness thing: Oh, right, I forgot that. Things make sense again, carry on.

@Odder:

He's a destroyer of Hope.

And the reason behind giving four words, where serenity is one of them, is to help illustrate that it's a broad thing, with many, well, aspects to it. Facets might be a better word?

But, I'm not going to bother to argue this further? I've said before, that classpect arguments are not my forte. I'm not getting in a long argument about them unless I think there's a point.

And, congratulations, the start of your post convinced me there isn't!

I will mention, though, that if you think Rage is more devotion, than determination? Then hey, we agree on that part. Imp's said the 'nihilism' is less like belief in nothing, and more belief in one thing.

Just thought I should at least mention that part.

edited 31st Mar '16 11:21:20 AM by RaichuKFM

I mean, it's mostly academic now, but yeah, I was suggesting that the whole 'dying on a magic rock' thing was basically just a shortcut. The theory's mostly shot to hell now, though. It'd be utterly bizarre presentation for that not to have been clarified by now if it was the case. Though it's still pretty odd that we're not getting any acknowledgment of Terezi: Remem8er, especially given Davepeta's comment about one's full self being too much for a mortal body, so idk.

edited 31st Mar '16 11:23:50 AM by Gilphon

God I love these dorks I LOVE THEM ALL SO MUCH

and one last reminder string T^T

The question callback is so fucking satisfying to. Basically I am having a grand old time.

I'm honestly just amazed that the Prime idea was even mentioned at all, really.

In hindsight, I'm surprised the Prime idea wasn't mentioned before. In a work that relies on alternate universes/timelines and alternate selves as much as Homestuck, there ought to be something in the multiverse that determines what a person is at their core, no matter the many variations, and that something is a constant value accross all of the multiverse.

Basically, think of it like this: there's a given number of distinct elements, and each of them has a different representation from an universe/timeline to another, but they remain the same element and can't be another. We had access to the representations since the beginning of the comic, but the elements are only being explicitely stated now. So in the whole multiverse, there's only one "Jade" element, one "Dave" element, one "John" element, etc, and many variations of each in different universes.

Then, the classpects are logically broad groups in which to classify the elements. For example, Space contains the "Jade", "Kanaya", "Porrim" and "Calliope" elements. Heir contains the "John", "Equius" and "Mituna" elements. Which means each element can be classified into two groups, one Aspect and one Class, but I think the Aspect groups are more important.

And then you have weird cases like Davepeta that are hard to classify. Do they belong to four groups at once? Should they be broken down and classified as Nepeta + Dave only? And where does "sprite" fit in the groups, or is it its own element added in the mix? Good luck.

At the very least, Davepeta has the aspects from both halves. I'm not willing to make any definite statements beyond that, but surely some inferences from that are reasonable.

Mhm. Like how choices the Denizens give never feel like actual choices, because they're given to a person who would never take the other option.

There's no Caliborn who took the Path of the Martyr, because the Path of the Martyr goes against everything Caliborn stands for.

Definitely. Remains to see if it was foreshadowing of Prime self or if Hussie just looked back at that thing and got new exposition from it. Considering how much he improvises things, he may very well have thrown such half-hints here and there and only wrote the explicit paragraph about it now.

Sprites squared continue to be lackluster representations of transcendent selves.

I would have thought that whatever classpect synthesis operation one undertook would just wind up with a singular, different classpect answer,^note Based on some very, very intricate things, not just like "Knight of Time + Rogue of Heart = Heir of Void, in all cases" or something, more that, a specific X of A and Y of B make a third person, who is a Z of C; which may or may not overlap with either or both of the previous options, but which is definitely a singular discrete classpect. Not as some sort of algebra, so much as, two people put together make a third, distinct person, and a single person has a single classpect, because that's how Paradox Space works? but considering this is supposedly a transcendent entity of some sort, I guess I don't know?

Not to knock the Prime thing, if that's what we're calling it now, just, the particular way it's being represented.

Especially since a Sprite Squared is a being that's supposedly the sum total of not just one, but two transcendent existences beyond the ken of mortal minds in mortal bodies, and... They just act like normal people, with a few token lines of reference to this existence?

They call themselves timeless, and the sum of every single 'X', but they clearly act mostly like the thems they were before those thems were prototyped into this new them that supposedly encompasses and transcends all those other thems.

The underlying philosophy is fine, but this execution is, no joke, among the worst I've seen?

edited 31st Mar '16 12:13:16 PM by RaichuKFM

I disagree entirely. Sprites have always been more the parts that make them then the exposition that they provide, and by parts I mean the singular occurrence of those parts from the timelines that defined them. Davesprite in particular has his failed timeline hanging over his entire characterization, and discounting that because they now have a conceptual idea of Prime selves would be seriously weird. They have some understanding, they aren't all Daves or All Nepetas or even all sprites.

Pretty much what Oda said. Having access to the memories of other Daves doesn't make Davesprite not-Dave, it makes him Dave who knows what other Daves did. It's not like he's taking in the memories of every Dave who ever became Prime Minister or a survivalist or a marine photographer or things like that; he has access to the existence of Dave within Sburb.

D 4 C- Dirty Daves Done Dirt Cheap

What they said ,.

Also the notion of Dave becoming a Prime Minister amuses me.

Also, I was going to say what Meta said above about the alternate selves, but he beat me to it and said it better than I would've anyway.

But yeah, I think the idea is that there's a sort of "core" that defines a character as an alternate of a specific person rather than someone else altogether. Like all the alternate Daves, while they might have gone off in different directions, are all still Daves on a fundamental level, and no amount of alternate continuity is going to make them not-Dave.

edited 31st Mar '16 12:39:42 PM by JapaneseTeeth

They straight up say they are All X's, though?

And,

I'm going to jump ship on this after this because noone's going to buy what I'm about to say,

But basically what you're saying is incoherent?

One can't say that the only difference between various instances of a self is the partition of memories and experiences between those instances; and say that one doesn't have such partitions; and then not be that transcendent self!

Again, I like the philosophy, I'm not arguing about the philosophy, I'm arguing about the Sprites Squared as embodiments of that philosophy.

But I've never, ever, ever made any headway with this kind of position, so.

I guess just fuck it?

(Addendum: Also, I also entirely agree with Meta.)

edited 31st Mar '16 12:44:57 PM by RaichuKFM

Yeah, I agree with Meta as well.

Mostly, Raichu, I'm just wondering how you think the sprites should be 'more Dave' or 'more Rose' than they already are.

Alternatively: Davepeta is just fukkin wrong.

Posting instead of editing: Like, I get what you're saying, Raichu, and I agree that I phrased my point very poorly. I just wouldn't expect the Sprites to be, like... suddenly mystical transcendent people, because that's not who they are, really. They just have a lot of experience to draw on for character development.

Okay, I think I understand better what you're trying to get at. I guess I'm sort of weirdly in the middle about it.

My main issue with what you're saying is that the sprites are making several claims, but I'm not sure whether the claims are necessarily connected. Specifically:

• They recall all of the memories of their component selves
• "everything that ever happens to every version of you is an important part of your ultimate self"
• A regular human has limits that prevent them from remembering those memories because it would be too much for them
• A sprite^2 can handle those memories

However, I don't think it's exactly clear whether the sprites^2 have actually become the ultimate self, or whether they're simply now more capable of understanding the concept because they can begin to accesses the memories of their other selves. I.e. I think there's still some ambiguity in that the sprites can comprehend the "ultimate self" better, but don't actually claim to be that gestalt entity comprised of all those memories.

So Davepetasprite remembers the experiences of alternate Daves and Nepetas, but those memories aren't necessarily equal in weight to the experiences of the particular instances of Nepeta and Dave that were used to create them. So they're sort of like a proto-ultimate self, but not the ultimate self.

Alternately, the fact that it's a combination of two separate beings might mess up the process as well. I.e. all the Daves are there and all the Nepetas are there, but they aren't perfectly mixed because Dave and Nepeta are ultimately different people.

TL;DR I'm not convinced that the sprites are supposed to represent the full concept to begin with.

edited 31st Mar '16 1:02:05 PM by JapaneseTeeth

@yy Lm@o Raichu KFM: Reminder that before the MSPA Forums went offline Classpect threads almost got banned entirely. The issue with classpects is that it's ultimately a matter of point of view, and you can argue a lot of weird positions on Classpects and have shit to back it up because Classpects were designed to fit a large number of scenarios. The only reason I said the thing I did on Rage and Gamzee is because it might explain why Gamzee is supposedly difficult to kill, but if that isn't really confirmed by the end then it's just more wild speculation on a part of the story we're likely never going to get any real solid answers on.

@Japanese Teeth: If Aranea is any proof, distracting really good psychics never works. If HIC sees Jade there, boom, Jade's Grimbark and it's all over from there.