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TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#58326: Mar 26th 2020 at 3:11:08 PM

Basically it's a very light rapid response force aimed to take and hold islands with little logistical weight, but at the likelihood of egregious casualties.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apacalypse. from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
#58327: Mar 26th 2020 at 3:17:36 PM

They won't be able to hold or even likely take much without the ability to punch hard. Instead of erasing existing capability for a bad idea Corps wide, they could far more easily create a few new units that are aimed at the role with an emphasis on mobile fire power.

Who watches the watchmen?
Imca (Veteran)
#58328: Mar 26th 2020 at 4:12:19 PM

Tanks are pretty much needed for warfare after 1940....

I mean, just ask China what it was like when they faced even the Chi-Ha and the Ha-Go without tanks of there own.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#58329: Mar 26th 2020 at 4:13:11 PM

Had to suicide bomb the tanks most of the time, or rely on the few anti-tank guns they had left.

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#58330: Mar 26th 2020 at 4:13:13 PM

Which ones were the ones made out of paper?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Imca (Veteran)
#58331: Mar 26th 2020 at 4:18:32 PM

Those two were the ones that the common conception is they were made of paper, the reality is they had some of the thickest armor in the world on medium tanks for the 30s when they entered service.

....

Armor then exploded once the war started and 26mm went from being "Insanley thick" to "You call that a tank" in a mater of only a couple years.

They were still very capable though, and the US army training videos warned there soilders there still a tank and to not fuck with them if you could avoid it.... They were just no match for a Sherman.

A good video on the topic

Edited by Imca on Mar 26th 2020 at 4:19:41 AM

eagleoftheninth Cringe but free from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Cringe but free
#58332: Mar 26th 2020 at 4:20:57 PM

China has been putting a lot of investment into light/medium amphibious armour over the past decade. Might be worth asking how these "littoral regiments" are supposed to counter them without their own armour.

(They'd be slow to deploy in theory, but ideally you don't want a game plan that relies on the adversary not being competent.)

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#58333: Mar 26th 2020 at 6:57:08 PM

Light infantry taking down tanks with a few anti-tank launchers and recoilless rifles is a romantic image, but it's tough as hell to actually do, and it's far better for morale and survivability to have your own armor to depend on and call up.

Like, this sounds like a plan drafted by some jackass higher-up who thinks the Marines are going to go at it like the Raiders, or Fidel Castro's left-wing nationalist guerrillas going at it in the Sierra Maestre.

Hell, to use another example, at the Bay of Pigs, Brigade 2506 got absolutely slaughtered by the Soviet armor coming their way, and they only had a handful of tanks and unreliable air support.

Then there's the South Koreans at the start of the Korean War; practically light infantry, no artillery over 105mm, short on everything except ammunition. They got hit by the full might of the mechanized and upgunned North Koreans, and they got routed so badly they only just managed to regroup in time at the Nakdong and Pusan. Not to mention that the initial US units sent up got their heads kicked in too due to lack of anti-tank.

General rule - even from a guy who really likes light infantry and guerrilla warfare like myself - armor is specifically sent to kick the infantry's ass and will do a fine job of it 90% of the time.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Mar 26th 2020 at 7:27:20 AM

eagleoftheninth Cringe but free from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Cringe but free
#58334: Mar 27th 2020 at 8:47:02 AM

*coughs pigeonly*

Germany is replacing its Tornado fleet with a split buy of Eurofighters, Super Hornets and Growlers. Apparently the big hiccup (aside from the obvious logistics/maintenance issue) is that NATO requires a fighter capable of vibing with the B61, which the legacy Hornet could do but the Super Hornet isn't certified for... for some reason.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#58335: Mar 27th 2020 at 8:52:24 AM

But, but, why aren't they buying the F-35? (NVM, not a serious question)

I think there’s a global conspiracy to see who can get the most clicks on the worst lies
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#58336: Mar 27th 2020 at 1:44:51 PM

The Super Hornet probably isn't certified because no export customer has needed it to be until now. They also say it wouldn't be hard to get it cleared within the intended timeframe.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
AFP Since: Mar, 2010
#58337: Mar 27th 2020 at 5:54:27 PM

Which part needs to be certified? Some fancy nuke authorization interface, or just the ability to safely carry and drop the thing without damaging the aircraft?

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apacalypse. from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
#58338: Mar 27th 2020 at 7:44:54 PM

IIRC the certs are for ensuring the craft can safely carry, interface, direct, and release the weapon without any notable issues. Basically proof the craft can actually carry and use the weapon.

Who watches the watchmen?
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#58339: Mar 27th 2020 at 10:28:31 PM

Has anyone noticed that Cuito Cuanavale and the Angolan war have been getting a lot of documentary focus on Youtube recently?

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Mar 27th 2020 at 10:28:41 AM

TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#58341: Mar 28th 2020 at 3:30:36 PM

Germany's talk of F-18's and Eurofighters to replace their Tornados...what happened to the Franco-Kraut Uberfighter that they were working on? Or did Merkel pound some fiscal sense into the Luftwaff?

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
TairaMai rollin' on dubs from El Paso Tx Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Mu
rollin' on dubs
#58342: Mar 28th 2020 at 4:24:12 PM

VIDEO: Pentagon Test Launches Prototype Hypersonic Weapon

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#58343: Mar 28th 2020 at 11:18:34 PM

[up][up]

I don't think it was ever cancelled, but it won't materialise for a long while I suspect. Even PESCO has nothing that would indicate that it's a priority, the following air systems projects being on the table :

European Medium Altitude Long Endurance Remotely Piloted Aircraft Systems – MALE RPAS (Eurodrone)

European Attack Helicopters TIGER Mark III

Counter Unmanned Aerial System (C-UAS)

Airborne Electronic Attack (AEA)

Edited by TerminusEst on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:21:47 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Ominae (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#58344: Mar 29th 2020 at 5:59:51 AM

North Macedonia has entered the NATO club.

HallowHawk Since: Feb, 2013
#58345: Mar 29th 2020 at 6:07:10 AM

[up] Heard about that. Is there anyone in former Yugoslavia that has yet to join NATO?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#58346: Mar 29th 2020 at 6:48:15 AM

Serbia, Kosovo and Bosnia are still not members.

Bosnia has a membership action plan though, so they will eventually join, that just leaves Serbia and Kosovo.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ominae (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#58347: Mar 29th 2020 at 7:13:36 AM

Serbia's working on a NATO integration plan soon.

Kosovo... well Serbia gets to go very mad and the Kosovo Security Force hasn't turned into a militarynote  something that Serbia, Russia, China and other countries that don't recognize it are "worried about".

Edited by Ominae on Mar 29th 2020 at 7:14:28 AM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#58349: Mar 29th 2020 at 1:47:06 PM

BBC article on the Sahel Crisis but not locked behind a paywall.

[I seriously think we should consider a ban on linking to the NY Times]

Anyway, the tl/dr is that there is a growing humanitarian crisis in the region which is ultimately linked to climate change.

I think there’s a global conspiracy to see who can get the most clicks on the worst lies
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#58350: Mar 29th 2020 at 1:49:06 PM

[up]

Shame. They put out good stuff but then the paywall kicks in. Thanks for the BBC article.

I might as well put the whole article in a quoteblock too.

     NYT article text 
AWAGATE FOREST, MALI — For two days, dozens of armored vehicles carrying 180 elite soldiers with the French Foreign Legion lumbered over West Africa’s scrubby savanna to reach a suspected hide-out for Islamist militants.

Finally, by a thicket of acacia trees, the legionnaires spotted a turbaned suspect in flip-flops, carrying an AK-47, who set off at a sprint and melted away in the distance. The soldiers found only his gun, boots, and ammunition holster under a thorny fence, and presented the findings to their officer.

“A bit of a modest result,’’ said Col. Nicolas Meunier, commanding officer of the French desert battle group.

When France sent its forces into Mali, a former French colony, after armed Islamists took control of the West African country’s northern cities, their mission was supposed to last only a few weeks.

That was seven years ago.

Since then, the terrorist threat has spread across a vast sweep of land south of the Sahara known as the Sahel, and France’s counterterrorism fight has spread with it. As a result, more than 10,000 West Africans have died, over a million have fled their homes and military forces from West Africa and France have suffered many losses.

And still, the battle is hardly finished. The Islamic State in the Greater Sahara, a potent armed group with loose ties to the Islamic State, has been conducting sophisticated attacks in the border regions of Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso. In the past four months, militants have raided four major military outposts in Mali and Niger, killing 300 soldiers.

France now finds itself stuck in the Sahel, much like the United States found itself in Afghanistan and Iraq — spending years and billions of dollars on fighting highly mobile Islamist groups in difficult, unfamiliar terrain, with no end in sight.

French President Emmanuel Macron threatened, ahead of an emergency summit meeting with West African presidents in January, to pull his troops out. Later, he doubled down on the mission, promising to deploy additional 600 soldiers to join the 4,500 already there. He also committed to work more closely with the militaries of African countries to get them better prepared to stave off attacks, and take some of the load off French shoulders.

But the task is enormous. The allies are divided by language, culture and experience.

At a French military camp outside the ancient Malian city of Gao, 15 Malian soldiers were being instructed by French airmen in how to give accurate directions to planes over the radio. The Malians’ mission was to guide a pretend fighter pilot to a pretend terrorist den — a rust-colored house, just like all the others in the city.

West African security forces have little of the equipment, training or even basic education that their French counterparts do. Most of the Malian soldiers said they had never seen a compass before, and they kept getting their directions wrong. They tested each other on the powdery sand, an empty cigarette packet marking north, a plastic cup for south.

The militants are far from defeated, with one group even managing to kidnap the politician who leads Mali’s main opposition party last week near Timbuktu.

The African Union recently said it would send 3,000 soldiers to the Sahel, and France has been trying to recruit new allies; Estonia and the Czech Republic have already signed up to send troops, while talks are continuing with Sweden, Finland and Norway.

But just as the French, Europeans and West Africans are ramping up the fight, the Trump administration is considering withdrawing American troops and closing a new air base in Niger that the Americans had built at the cost of $110 million. Some American officials have said they want to concentrate instead on confronting China and Russia.

The French defense minister, Florence Parly, flew to Washington in late January to plead for the Americans’ continued support.

French military officers interviewed in Mali and Niger last month on the runway of an air base, in the cockpit of a transport plane and in a drone control room said they are concerned about the annual loss of $45 million worth of transportation, air refueling and drones that the U.S. contributes to the French mission, which costs $1 billion annually.

But General Pascal Facon, the commander of the French mission, said in an interview that European and African armies could “easily” conquer the Islamic State in the Greater Sahara. Unlike the Islamic State at its height in Syria and Iraq, ISGS does not hold any territory and has no long roots in local communities, he said.

“We shouldn’t underestimate them,” said General Facon. “We shouldn’t give them too much importance either.”

French troops first came to Mali at the request of Mali’s government. Although they are there to defend Malian civilians, the two groups have very little interaction.

A foot patrol of French soldiers, fully covered in flak jackets, helmets, sunglasses and half-balaclavas, skirted around a nomadic family of women and children who were packing or unpacking their hut made of sticks and handwoven mats, and their few belongings — some plastic containers, a cooking pot.

Was the family coming or going, and why? The soldiers could not ask. They had no common language. And if militants found out the family had spoken to them, the family could be killed.

When some Malian teens begged a Foreign Legion convoy for cookies, they blocked the convoy’s path, delaying them for half an hour. The boys got no cookies. In another incident, a legionnaire pointed his gun at some locals who tried to jump on the back of an armored vehicle.

The battle has taken a toll on everyone. France’s defense minister said last year that the army had killed 600 jihadists since 2015. In February, Niger announced that 120 militants had been killed, and the French military recently announced that an additional 50 were killed in Central Mali.

But France has lost 44 soldiers since 2013, including 13 in a helicopter accident last year; Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso have lost hundreds in multiple attacks on military encampments.

A fleet of fighter jets, drones, transport planes and helicopters has given the French a significant advantage, and they are often able to scatter armed groups just by flying low and aggressively over them. But even if local armies were in a position to take over, chasing terrorists from desert to dry river bed to acacia forest is not enough to bring peace to the region, experts say.

“The military solution is absolutely necessary, but insufficient,” said Lori-Anne Theroux-Benoni, director of the Institute for Security Studies, in Dakar, and co-author of a recent report on violence in the region. “Everyone is mesmerized by the level of violence,” she said, “and therefore not focusing enough on prevention.”

The armed groups have enjoyed such success largely because they have exploited deep anger against the state governments, which many in the region say they see as hostile, self-interested and corrupt. Their militaries are often accused of feeding these grievances, by committing grave human rights abuses against the population.

Anti-France demonstrations, held mostly by residents of Bamako, the Malian capital, over the past six months have attracted French ire.

It is unclear at what point France will consider its work to be done, or get frustrated, and leave. Should it follow America’s example and get out?

“In the same way that French reality TV and pop music is 15 years behind the U.S., French counterterrorism mimics U.S. counterterrorism of 15 years ago,” said Hannah Armstrong, an analyst with the International Crisis Group. “In the Sahel, the Americans have already realized this is a losing battle.”

In most cases, the militants hear the long noisy convoys of the French Foreign Legion from miles away, and clear out. French commanders recognize this. They say that the idea is to keep the armed groups on the run, so they cannot settle in with the local population.

The suspected terrorist in flip-flops apparently did not hear the convoy coming, but by the time the soldiers could maneuver their vehicles to the tangle of trees where they last saw him, he was long gone — perhaps blending in with the local population.

The locals are usually too terrified to give up any suspects, knowing that when the armies have moved on, anyone who helped the military can be executed. There are no police and no courts to protect them.

The legionnaires saw a family duck into their hut. A few nomads herding camels strode past. Could the man who fled be among them? The French troops could not tell.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Mar 29th 2020 at 1:53:54 AM


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