Sexism In Anime

This.

Despite all the Hell that happens beforehand, when Madoka remakes the world to be better and fairer (not perfect but still better than it was, mind) she even says "If someone tells me it's wrong to believe and hope, I'll just tell them they're wrong. As many times as I have to, until they believe me." Yes a lot of bad things happen to the girls, but in the end, Madoka is able to find a way to give them a better life. It just took a while and it wasn't as easy as Kyuubey's first "wish anything and I'll grant it" promise first made it seem.

Even as a classic magical girl fan, I don't resent madoka for telling the story it wanted. Princess tutu also had the main characters mission actually be trick and her sacrificing herself for the sake of all the others trapped in her situation. No, I resent it for being the thing that made bargain bin edgy magical girl stories the next big thing. Only thing I can rely on for normal magical girl stories is precure and it fluctuates per season

I’ve heard arguments on both sides. The more antagonistic is that Urobutchi, a man, ignores a lot of the tragedy and heartache in the stories he’s lampooning in favor of a Shallow Parody that laughs at female created power fantasies because he totally knows better. He views magical girls like Garth Ennis views superheroes, worthless and only useful as a target of mockery to promote the stuff he really wants to see.

The other, more positive one is that Urobutchi is ultimately writing a story about hope, self belief, and a desire for something better, as such his optimism is a tempered one, but like metal, since it’s tempered, it endures through all the antagonism that the protagonist faced.

Genres evolve and change. Magical girl ones too. I do believe more optimistic takes will make a comeback - Hell, Doremi is having a new arc now after a timeskip.

As mentioned, Madoka also wasn't the only one or even the first one to introduce heavy topics into Magical Girl stories. Look at Sailor Saturn/Hotaru's storyline, or the arc with Aiko's parents in Doremi.

Edited by akanesarumara on Aug 6th 2019 at 7:18:50 PM

Madoka isn't so cynical that it says that saving people is wrong or whatever. It ends with Madoka beating the system and finding a way to make everyone as happy as she can. It's just that the cute animal character that grants wishes and turns girls into magical girls is actually a manipulator who preys on young girls and takes advantage of their naivety and desires for his own gain, requiring Madoka to gain enough info to make a wish that will change the system into one more fair for the girls.

It's also not even really aimed at the girls who watch magical girl anime. The late air times and way the spin-off material is put out make it clearly aimed at male otaku. I don't think the contents of the anime is anything too dark or weird for it work as something aimed at teenage girls, but in the end it's basically a guy and a studio that normally makes otaku shows wanting to make a dark magical girl show, not make something with a cynical message aimed at young girls.

Edited by KuroBaraHime on Aug 6th 2019 at 1:23:40 PM

Of course genres evolve and change, I never said they didn't. After all the likes a cardacaptor sakura and princess tutu are different from sally the witch and sailor moon

However the current trend isn't even a show for young girls, its more often than npt edgy grimdark "realistic" magical girl shows where they try to find the most creative ways to mentally break the main characters. Most are bargain bin and the fact that older magical girl type shows (really, have there even been any not named precure for the past decade) are rare now is frustrating as a result.

And I wasn't talking about dark topics being in magical girl shows, i mentioned princess tutu for a reason, its an older one thats dark as well.

Edited by Mami on Aug 6th 2019 at 10:34:04 AM

To be fair, Gen Urobutchi's modus operandi seems to be crushingly bleak stories with big bodycounts. It's telling that Madoka is one of the more optimistic ones despite everything happening in it.

Since I've already posted here, I'd like to hear the thread's opinion on Black Lagoon. It is skewing more towards a female cast, with only a few significant male characters, so I'm curious to hear what people think on it.

If you count Granbelm as a magical girl show (it's not technically one but it does have some elements), it seems like a step in that direction. It is dark in some ways with several girls having a few screws loose, but it also has quite a bit of levity outside of the (non-lethal) fights. We're far from the "bargain bin edgefest shows" mentioned above.

Haven't seen that one. :x

Edited by Lyendith on Aug 6th 2019 at 7:37:32 PM

Wasn't the new doremi stated to be a movie though?

I'm quite a fan of Black Lagoon actually, some sketchy stuff aside. I admit to a serious fondness for Balalaika as a character.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 6th 2019 at 10:37:29 AM

Can't say i like Balalaika as much, especially after her edgy nihilistic speech to Rock in Yakuza Arc.

Black Lagoon is certainly interesting. I think it goes back and forth between thoughtful character introspection and edgy tryhard bleakness for the sake of it, and sometimes the two can blur together.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 6th 2019 at 12:44:44 PM

Black lagoon is this weird bubble where I'm so in it for the kickass violence I don't think much about the genders of people involved. I think both males and females are well written though, it's a nice series. Now if only it had consistent updates

I tried to get into it, but it did seem very cynical. I’d call it nihilistic, but I’m not sure if that’s accurate. If it is, it’s a pretty cynical take on nihilism

To be fair, that is exactly how one of my favorites ends... Protag being high on protagonist spirit decides that that he can go get into a dogfight with The Unfettered and.... well in one wrong move he ends up giving the inside of his plane a new coat of red paint, and the series ends with the remaining protagonists (a good chunk of them just... arent), waiting for him to return by the runway, before one by one filling there way back inside.... ending with the last one giving up.

Sometimes exploring the futility of something makes for an interesting story, there is nothing wrong with going that way in principle.

That doesn't exactly make it better. :/

Edited by Imca on Aug 6th 2019 at 2:13:37 AM

That sounds like something straight from an edgelord teenager.

I've seen the scene she's talking about, it's the final somber note in a war drama and it's delivered with very little fanfare or circumstance.

Very All Quiet on the Western Front kind of thing.

What show is that?

Sky Crawlers, basicly 2 hours of airplane porn wrapped up in a drama about how war is a waste of lifes, and the only people who benifit from it are those that will never see it in the first place.

Edited by Imca on Aug 6th 2019 at 3:36:04 AM

Ah, I see, I see.

TBH, I think series can be dark, deconstructive and end on a sombre note.

But when it specifically comes to genre subversions...I think there's a difference between a loving deconstruction (or reconstruction) of a series, a clever/meaningful deconstruction (whether it's a parody, or just asking questions), and what's basically a grimdark version of a Shallow Parody.

Like, there's a difference between applauding a series for building on what came before it and playing with expectations, and just straight up mockery of the genre.

There's nothing wrong with the latter, but trying to push it to the top comes across in a very "2000's Newgrounds cartoons where The Powerpuff Girls and Pikachu are brutally slaughtered" kind of way.

Edited by Bisected8 on Aug 6th 2019 at 11:54:13 AM

Symphogear is basically what happens when one looks at Madoka Magica and decides to say "fuck that, we can be as escapist as we want thanks to the power of songs, because thats the awesome way to do things."

It then turns from Madoka Lite into Nanoha but with punching things instead of Beam spam.

Symphogear never had all that much Madoka influence. The main ingredients are Precure, Macross, Nanoha, and some assorted cheerfully trashy Eighties OV As.

Funny you should mention Symphogear. Thanks to a friend’s recommendation, I’m binging it as we speak. I really do enjoy the balance it strikes, like Nanoha did.

Aoi Yuuki being the main lead's voice actress as well as some occasional visual Homage's (Tsubasa's Tears of blood moment being framed near identically to Sayaka's "I'm such a fool" shot, for one) made people think that, but Symphogear had been in conceptual development long before Madoka came out, and the head writer looks more to Old School Super Robot shows and Armored Heroes like Saint Seiya for influence then anything else.