Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality

And getting all the secret knowledge from Syltherin.

Something I've wondered. Did he actually kill the Basilisk, or just say so to stop Harry from looking?

"Arguing with Word Of God is pointless." And why, pray tell, shouldn't Eliezer be an Unreliable Narrator?

"^^Like you, I have difficulty believing that Voldemort could be nice. Once a monster, always a monster, right? However, your theory that Quirrel's Grindenwald is improbable. Dumbledore may not be the most reliable of sources, but if he says that Grindenwald is securely imprisoned and still alive, what motivation does he have to lie to Harry?

Further, who's to say this story's Voldemort was the same as Rowling's? The cruelty is still there, but the background could be different; I think a lot of people, myself included, are expecting Quirrelmort to turn around and give Harry (and us) an explanation of how/when he acquired his current worldview and scientific knowledge. (My money's on the merger with Quirrel.) Or for him to reveal Professor Quirrel was all just an act."

I have absolutely no problem with these ideas. A better, smarter Voldemort seems like the obvious thing this plot would do. I just don't buy that Less Wrong would do something that obvious. And if he did, I don't see why he wouldn't simply put it in plainly in the story for us to see. Instead he left the matter open, while using Word of God to make it seem entirely closed. Contradicting himself to mindscrew us all seems exactly like his sort of plot.

Um. Have you read the latter half of Chapter 72?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I don't think that's a very good analogy.

No one actually trusts Draco, so by commenting on their speculation he's just making his actions more mysterious.

But almost everyone DOES trust the Word of God, so by commenting on Quirrell's Identity he's basically eliminated the mystery for most people. The only way the story could benefit from this that I see is if he was lying so the reveal would be extra-shocking.

I highly doubt that Eliezer would openly acknowledge that Quirrell is Voldemort when he's not, because it simply wouldn't add to the story. Quirrell being Grindelwald, for example, wouldn't just be a twist, it would be a Shocking Swerve; yeah he'd have the readers fooled, but they wouldn't be impressed when they found out, most of them would just call bullshit. Eliezer doesn't need to lie to the audience to prevent his twists from being over-telegraphed.

If knowing Quirrel's identity so thoroughly eliminates the mystery, try explaining his motives.

edited 6th Nov '11 6:49:07 PM by Desertopa

Yes, I agree a shocking swerve wouldn't be good. I'm not sure Quirrell being anyone besides Voldemort would necessarily fall into that category, though.

But now that I think about it, it's quite probable that this man was The Dark Lord, but only as part of his massive evil scheme. Hell, he might have even faked Trawlawney's Prophecy, which would explain Snape's confusion over it. The author wouldn't have been lying by referring him as Voldemort, but he could still be revealed as someone else, known or unknown.

And as long as I'm still spinning conspiracies, the rational thing to do during your evil master plan would be to Imperius someone talented but weak-willed and have them act on your behalf, never putting yourself at risk until you've won. The Quirrell that's been in Hogwarts all this time could easily be a puppet of the real mastermind. Anyone smart enough to make his own evil overlord list would have thought of this. Unless there's a drawback I'm not seeing.

edited 6th Nov '11 9:17:10 PM by DarthHobbes

That is very outlandish. Imperiused people are floating on a little cloud of happiness, not staring at you with keenly intelligent eyes from a corpse-like body.

They FEEL like they're on a cloud of happiness, they don't act like it. In Canon, it seemed entirely possible to make an imperious person act however you like, if you could cast the curse well enough. Crouch was able to fool everyone for a while, and Thicknesse seemed to have been quite convincing in his role as Minister. I should think Voldemort's personal Imperiuses would be even more effective.

Factor in memory modification and unbreakable vows and it seems entirely possible to send someone in your stead for any given task, if you're clever enough.

edited 7th Nov '11 10:02:04 AM by DarthHobbes

Unbreakable vows have a permanent cost. You can't just use them willy nilly.

Use a dying person to cast them. Bwahaha. Harry suggested using people who were on their death bed, but I'm pretty sure Voldemort would enforce that, if you catch my drift...

Why? As you said yourself, the fact that Quirrell wouldn't mind a chance to use the Resurrection Stone (which is potentially an extremely useful artifact) isn't evidence that he's anyone else.

Nothing I know about Eliezer suggests that this is the sort of plot twist that he would want to implement, or that making statements that are direct contradictions of fact, rather than being misleading while technically true, is the sort of thing he'd do to preserve a twist. What makes you think it's more probable that he was lying than telling the truth?

"Quirrel isn't Voldemort. When EY said he was,he was lying to throw us off the scent."

My first instinct is to ask you to read Making Beliefs Pay Rent and Belief in Belief,but I'll lay out what evidence I can muster through this cold I have.

• Evidence for your theory:
  • Quirrel does not seem nasty enough or impatient enough to be Voldemort - moderate evidence for your theory
  • He also seems committed to grooming Harry,not himself,to be the next leader of the Wizarding World - again,moderate evidence for your theory if you assume Voldemort's body-hopping abilities wouldn't work on Harry

• Uncertainties:
  • We do not know if this Voldemort is exactly the same as Rowling's - weakens evidence equally. Based on our internal impressions (Harry's memory), almost the same, but seemingly a bit more rational
  • EY wrote this to promote his ideas on rationality. Given his writings,given his strong love of truth,and commitment to accuracy above all else,would he then lie to the people he is trying to impart his ideas to? I say no,based on the impression I have of him through his writing. You say yes, based on the impression of him you have through the story's tendency for convoluted plots - circumstantial evidence against

• Evidence opposing your theory:
  • EY has stated that Quirrel was Voldy in the author's notes (a link to them may be found earlier in this thread) - very strong evidence against
  • Quirrel is skilled enough in impersonation to have at least one whole other identity and has admitted to Harry that he has lost track of how many he has - strong evidence for Quirrel being an act and against your theory
    • While Dumbledore is very sharp,Harry was nevertheless able to fool him - moderate evidence against Q. being found out

We know that the antagonist of this story is much smarter than anyone in Rowling's work. It says so in the Author's Note.

Also, in Azkaban, Quirrell knows a password that only Voldemort would know. Harry thinks any deatheater would know it, but it makes much more sense that a password like that would only be known by Voldemort and Bella .

edited 11th Nov '11 6:12:33 AM by Oscredwin

Then we have to ask how he survived, and if he anticipated harry's protection why he still went to the house instead of just leaving Harry alone.

That appears to be one of the central mysteries of the story. What exactly is going on inside Quirrelmort's head

He does have horcruxes, the same explanation of how he survived from the original canon probably still applies. Whether he anticipated Harry's protection is still an open question, but I suspect that he didn't, because it seems like he took deliberate measures to prevent Lilly from creating magical protection for Harry through her sacrifice, so whatever caused his spell to backfire was probably something else, and if he meant to get blown up he wouldn't have needed to do that.

Even if his spirit survived, he still needed a body.

Voldemort. He lives in you.

Is there any guide to what happened in what chapters? For example, I can't remember the exact details of Harry recalling Lilly's death, but there are too many chapters to check.

It was in Humanism, when he's demented. That's not too many to check, and it's #2 on the CMOA list, so worth rereading anyway.

If you do still read this thread Eliezer, think we could have an update on your progress like at the end of October?

edited 30th Nov '11 8:33:27 AM by DarthHobbes

11,300 words into Ch. 78, 800 of them from today. Also gave up on a failed attempt to factor out a sub-chapter.

Do still plan on finishing 79 before releasing 78?

I promise, you could have the mother of all cliff-hangers and we'd still want to read it the moment it's done.

Please, take your time. I have faith in your Fan-Fiction-Fu.

I should probably get an app to monitor the state of the story, rather than using this thread as a newsfeed. Too many false alarms.

You on the list for FF.net mail updates? That was what finally broke me of the frantically-refresh-every-hour habit that only paid off every week.