It's not that Tokiomi is a dick, it's that he has different values. He genuinely believes that going through horrible training to become a great magus is what is best for Sakura. Like one of his most cherished memories is that his father gave him a choice between being a mage and being a normal person and he picked mage despite the hardships. Becoming a magus is not easy for anyone, as Tohsaka mentions regarding the pain of the Magic Crest transplant, how it occasionally makes her sick and how it hurts to use magic at all.
Also, I'm not going to get into it at length, but he actually had every reason to trust Zouken even from a purely pragmatic standpoint. What Zouken did to Sakura makes no sense from a pragmatic standpoint, at least so far as a mage thinks. The problem is that Zouken is crazy and doesn't care about a successor, he just wants to be immortal, so it doesn't matter if he abuses Sakura and ruins her ability to succeed him as the head of the Matou family.
^ Yeah, if you ignore Kariya's obvious ulterior motives and the fact that he never even tried to explain. Kariya was also a dick.
Edited by Arha on Oct 10th 2018 at 11:34:42 AM
The Cat Knows Where It's At
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Ah, yes, my favorite Fate series character: Vaver Welvet.
Different values can be viewed as dickish by others and unsympathetic. Tokiomi crosses that line into that, and to be honest with the way his wife lashes out I wouldnt be surprised if she knew about the bugrape too but being a doormat happily went along with it. I mean literally anytime someone brings up Gilgamesh being Chaotic Good is a perfect case of this.
Kariya is a loser regardless. But I would say he does wants the girls happy even in his delusional petty revenge state since his fantasy also includes them.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Stop Killing My Titles
Huh. I thought the real reason for giving Sakura over to the Matous was to have her escape being given a Sealing Designation by the Association, since both her and Rin turned out to be too good for their own good and not that it was just a stepping stone for Tokiomi to ascend to whatever nebulous greatness he had in mind.
...like, that doesn't make sense, does it? How does sending his daughter away help him, specifically? (beyond not having to bother with Association's goons)
grah
Yeah, I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm saying that he's not just a dick and that portraying him as only caring about the family name and the progression of their craft is simply wrong. He made a mistake, but that mistake was not founded in a lack of love for Sakura. Rather, he loved her a lot and the only option for what he could do with hernote would be to send her to someone who should have been trustworthy but wasn't.
Also, Aoi has no right to complain. And she wouldn't anyway. She turned over all her decision making to Tokiomi.
Edited by Arha on Oct 10th 2018 at 12:37:50 PM
Oh I know. I was mentioning about how much of an idiot she was and unwilling to accept its her own fault for choosing a Magus who thought handing their daughter over to someone else was a good thing. Especially when we now know he knew about the bugs violating their daughter and Urobutcher being a edgelord.
I do feel thet his love is something dangerous and should be denied precisely because of how messed up it is. Just like the Evils whose love leads them to try to Kill All Humans. Its unhealthy for the recipients of said love, especially when they want to do what's "good for them".
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 10th 2018 at 10:54:30 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
CHADhan Player.
It's easy to say Tokiomi was an uncaring asshole when judging him from human values. But that's it, he doesn't follow human values, he follows the values of a magus. And he wanted, what he felt as a magus, for both of his children to reach their full potential.
Is it right? Perhaps not. Do you have to agree with it? Certainly not. But Tokiomi didn't do what he did out of neglect or ignorance which is something that gets overlooked a lot.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Considering "muh humans and humanity" is what matters in Fate I think caring about his values doesn't really matter. He's ultimately wrong and neither of his daughters want he full package og what hes offering. Even Rin who underwent it all doesn't have what it takes to have the boring Magus morality and holds on to her compassion and her inability to handle money.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 10th 2018 at 11:05:32 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
I don't think you're supposed to disregard his values. You're supposed to understand that he meant well and did the best he could even if he was wrong. His intentions matter even if they were misdirected.
Although really, Sakura was screwed no matter what.
CHADhan Player.
And she still came out as a great Magus at the end despite it all.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Thanks Tokiomi!
Though seriously I think Urobuchi went too far with the knowledge of what Tokiomi knew. It was easier to accept when he was believed to be ignorant of it amdnthought whatever Zouken was doing was fine. It also helps that Kariya is a moron and never mentions it cause of his pettiness.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Just another weeb
I always thought that one of the reasons Kariya didn't bring it up was that the agony of the worm implanting had left him with a few screws loose.
Regardless of your opinion of the last American election, we can all agree on one thing- The Chinese Communist Party can choke on scrotes!
drunk bunny
That's a common sentiment with most anime he directs
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Eugenics, in a nutshell.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
insert commentary here
RIP Kingprotea, she had a good run while it lasted.
Kazuradrops is the worst.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
It's 50/50 for me. The tragedy of the matter is that Kariya could have told them sooner, but was too far gone to actually reason with the object of his hatred or the woman he loved by the time he met either of them, and it wouldn't have been easy for him to contact either parent about the training earlier than that.
So, he got less sympathetic over the matter but through fault not entirely his own.
Edited by VeryMelon on Oct 11th 2018 at 3:19:37 PM
King of Anime
Honestly I think Kariya was completely sympathetic right up until he strangled Aoi. But I also think of Tokiomi as sympathetic, if not stupid, and that Urobucher saying he knew about the worms is stupid too so take that with a grain of salt.
CHADhan Player.
I think tragic is a better term for Kariya than sympathetic.
I don't have much pity for him, but what he goes through is pretty fucked up all the same as his eventual fate.
Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Oct 11th 2018 at 6:01:22 AM
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Anka Aquila
Damn it, and I actually thought Tokiomi could be written off as a decent person.
Though I don't know what's worse, that Tokiomi was in the know of Zouken's training or that according to the story that still makes him kind in comparison to the rest of the magus across the world.
Edit:
Yeah, Kariya is tragic and pitiable, that said, in retrospect it becomes more clear that his grudge towards Tokiomi and wish to one-up him is what made him choose to join the war instead of pursuing another, more sensible route. I don't know if it's specified in the Light Novel, but from what I saw Kariya had no idea of what to do after he succeeded in rescuing Sakura.
Edited by raziel365 on Oct 11th 2018 at 8:16:04 AM
Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Something to keep in mind is that all magus training is horrible. Most of them feel it's worth it. Tohsaka thinks Shirou is crazy because he puts himself through the training even though he doesn't really love the feeling of self improvement.
And also because he's ignorant and does it all wrong.
vicarious
Worms are probably gonna be the worst we’ve seen of magus training. And here’s the thing.
When you sign for mage life, you accept that you may possibly die or worse because of how dangerous magic is. To be a magus is to walk with death. Pain is par for the course. Everyone suffers even if it’s not equal
Tokiomi would be disgusted by Zouken’s magecraft training because kegare and that kind of juju is universally seen as innately fucked up let alone Japan. But if it genuinely taught Sakura effective magecraft that utilized her potential and guaranteed her heir status, he would accept it. The problem of course is also because Zouken had no intention on making Sakura the heir, the training actually fucked her magical alignment, and only treated her as a broodmare to pump out babies for the future at best so that’s what’s no go for Tokiomi.
The funny thing is that Tokiomi did not know this and had every justifiable in universe reason to make that arrangement by those standards and was intended to make her live a successful magus life. The whole point is that it is dramatic irony that Tokiomi’s actions trapped Sakura instead of freeing her. Delicious dramatic irony
Fuck, I just thought of something in the shower that made me laugh. Kiritsugu goes through all the steps of preparing for the Fourth Holy Grail War, being an edgy downer the whole time like usual and finally summons the king of knights
wearing a swimsuit and babbling nonstop about how she will be the greatest squirt gun master the world has ever seen and how she seeks her commemorative trophy, the Holy Grail.
- Diarmuid: Come, let us engage in an honorable duel!
Artoria: Yes, our watersports will be a sight to behold!
Diarmuid: Begin! ...Wait, what did you say? Watersports are more Fionn's thing.
- Iskander: King of knights, will you not join me in conquering the world?
Artoria: There can be only one champion! Pew! Pew pew pew!
- Gilles: OOOOOH! JEAAA-
Artoria: Octopus! Delicious!
- Lancelot: ...You know what? I'm out.
- Gilgamesh: Fuhahahaha! You limit yourself to only one water gun, mongrel? Fear the might of the ancient prototype of all squirtguns,
Artoria: Ugh! Is there no way to win?!
And Kiritsugu doesn't break character or react at all to any of this.
Edited by Arha on Oct 12th 2018 at 12:17:04 PM
My thing with Tokiomi isn't that he's a shitty father, even Rin admitted even if she loved him, he was a magus first and a father second.
But rather that Kariya is 100% justified in opposing him because of it...and that he's not a delusional child acting on selfish impulses and using his hatred for Tokiomi to justify it.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.