Dragon Age

Solas' plan would entail mass genocide if it succeeds, and has the possible side effect of unleashing the rest of the Evanuris even if it doesn't succeed. It's more than "kind of" awful.

Tbf he plans on making sure they aren’t a threat even when he does destroy the veil.

But of course it’s Solas so the ramifications of what he does will be worse than what he expects. So I expect something worse to be unleashed than if he just let the Evanuris be free after the Veils gone. Both times he’s underestimated the larger scale results of his actions after all.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 6th 2023 at 10:51:07 AM

Because the franchise has now gone out of it's way to complicate the matter of said magical slavery; the Templars and the Church are allied but separate entities and then DA 2 and Inquisition happens and the (Southern) Chantry no longer has it's standing army. The take down and decimation of the Templars isn't quite the same thing.

Especially since... well, for as much as the Templar-Mage war sure was a thing... I kinda don't think the Chantry comes all that poorly out of it? Long term anyway?

Like, Solas and his revelations about the Elven people and culture? Devastating. Utter re-writing of everything we knew. Changes so much.

The Chantry's pope blowing up for utterly unrelated reasons? They get a new pope by the end of the game and, short of getting Vivienne the hardest candidate to get elected, they'll probably be mostly fine. Especially with lethal leftist Leliana at the helm. The Chantry has utterly held onto all of their power and influence through the entire franchise. Even the Templars seem to still exist no matter what despite everything that happens which I think is pretty dull.

I would also point out we're heading into Tevinter and their version of the Chantry here. I doubt we could have many revelations about their chantry that don't also affect the Southern one too. Especially with the loathing Solas expresses for Tevinter and their Magisters.

If Solas wants to destroy their country and power, some really damning revelations about their religion and country pride would cause much chaos. Granted, he might not care for a weak Tevinter with the Qunari on the horizon, but he might also not give a shit.

Solas is fundementally a villain who is set up to be prideful and then have the second sin of re-doubling his pride that he can solve his first error. Or that it's even possible or right to correct it by now- again, his plan involves exterminating all life in Thedas at this point.

Edited by InkDagger on Dec 6th 2023 at 10:53:49 AM

The difference is elven religion is depicted as a Religion of Evil, where the elven gods are not only not actual gods, but actively evil themselves. The Dalish understanding is completely wrong.

Meanwhile, the Chantry is a problem on an institutional level, but the existence of the Maker is ambiguous while Andraste is depicted as a sort of Jesus Was Way Cool, even if the Chantry preaches inaccuracies.

Imagine if Andraste showed up and it was revealed that she is a corrupt charlatan.

So, yeah, I can see how it's a problem that they tear down the non-Christian religions, but the one that resembles Christianity is only questioned on an institutional level.

Edited by SilentColossus on Dec 7th 2023 at 5:38:21 AM

Andraste being a dragon disguised as a human will never not be my favorite theory from the game itself

I dunno, both Flemeth and Solas save the world twice as part of their efforts. They're just dicks about it but that's basically the Grey Warden's MO in a nutshell.

If the Chantry is just flat out WRONG about their god existing then that's so much worse than the Elves. They at least have a culture they are trying to revive. If the Maker is a lie, the Chantry doesn't have anything to contribute as its all Based On A Big Lie.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 7th 2023 at 7:11:24 AM

Honestly, I wouldn't mind it too much if it turned out that the Chantry was founded on something that didn't happen, so long as the writers turn it into an interesting story. I've seen one book that I greatly enjoy (spoilering the book title because it is a major spoiler for that book), The Priory of the Orange Tree, did a similar twist and made it a very interesting plot point.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 7th 2023 at 8:24:46 AM

The problem with this example is that the Chantry is not the religion. The evils of the Chantry are the evils of an organization, it's very easy for someone to say that they're just flawed humans and we can reform it. Hence why in Inquisition your choices is either appoint a conservative who changes nothing vs various shades of reformers. You do not fundamentally oppose the organization, much less the underlying religion.

Nothing is being torn down and the games don't pretend otherwise.

Which itself wouldn't be intrinsically a problem but it is interesting when the devs go out of their way to not comment on the metaphysical claims of the religion while doing the exact opposite with the Dalish. Clearly Andrastianism is being treated with kid gloves.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Dec 7th 2023 at 8:24:26 AM

I'd argue this is a big reason why the Dalish' handling in Inquisition was terrible, not the reverse.

I'm ok with the way the Dalish were treated in Inquisition... provided everyone else gets a similar devastating revelation.

I think the turn around for "Based On A Great Big Lie" is if the lie still has cultural meaning and relevance. Maybe Andraste was not the wife of the Maker, but maybe the Chant of Light gives meaning and purpose to someone's life that helps them be a good person or find existence in the universe meaningful. There's a complicated angle there if the narrative is incorrect, but the emotions and concepts are valuable.

In the hypothetical of Andraste being met and being nothing like the chant's idea of her, I'm not saying she walk in and be all "Yo, The Maker is fake! I lied! Muahahahahaha!" or anything. Just that Chantry took a lot of liberties with her identity and personhood to suit their goals and narrative.

The point is that not doing anything with the chant and it's accuracy shows a level of... validity to it that the others aren't recieving. It feels like... I don't want to imply accuracy to this, but it feels like the writers treating the Chant like their own Christianity; "Oh, we have all these wild fantastic (pagan) pantheons with elven gods and the like, but God? Oh, I guess we'll never ever know one way or the other. God- I mean, The Maker works in mysterious ways".

They're treating the Chant with the respect that a lot of people treat IRL Christanity while everything else is "Fantastic Fantasy Religion" we can just play with... cuz those elves are dirty dirty pagans with their fake religions.

Not to divert too heavily into irl politics, but it's something I loathe about irl religious discussions; "The Bible is THE LITERAL WORD OF GOD AND DON'T YOU DARE QUESTION IT". The Bible has a huge history of the translation process and so many of those translations are based entirely on the politics and motivations of whomever wrote it- If the "original source" was ever pure and undiluted "Word of God", it isn't by now.

For example, the passages that many cite for "God hates homosexuality" were only translated that way in, like, the early 1900s... when there was a slow acceptance of homosexuality going on. Christmas as "the birth of Christ"? Not a thing for most of our history actually and certainly not in December- Church took over pagan holidays as a means of integration and assimilation with local cultures and customs.

I feel like you could absolutely play around with those concepts and ideas without turning it into "Your religion is wrong and you're stupid" or going "Well, here's the exact full proven truth on The Maker".

Heck, we're kinda going that way with some aspects; there are lines to be drawn between Fen'Herel and Shartan that I'm rather curious about.

Solas does start with an s the same way Satan does,and the elves already regard him as bad due to him being 'the dread wolf' so yeah,there is a line between him and Shartan

While the date Andraste was born is heavily contested in-universe, the most common date given is 203... the same year Dumat was finally killed.

So some fans speculate that Andraste was an Old God baby, the same as Kieren (assuming you did the Dark Ritual) and that explains why Andraste had such strange dreams throughout her childhood.

And it wouldn't even necessarily disprove the Maker: it just explains why Andraste's life was so strange, and would give credence to the Imperial Chantry's stance that she was "just" a powerful mage.

Edited by SilentColossus on Dec 7th 2023 at 11:19:25 AM

The reason I don't want The Black City and The Maker to be explored, is not:

"I don't want the Christianity like religion to be proven false, but I am okay with those pagan Elves' silly beliefs getting debunked.

..............

It is for the same reason that I don't want Aragorn and Frodo to meet Eru Illuvatar, or the Pevensie brothers to go and face the Emperor behind the sea, or whatnot.

Because a) It will be silly and b) It will up the stacks to the point that any other entry in the franchise will be anti-climatic.

You may say " fine, don't bring the Maker, but what is wrong with visiting the Black City, and fighting endless hordes of darkspawn there? Or drinking ale with Andraste over a card game?"

The problem with that is that you remove the mystic of those charcters and places who are the foundation over which the setting of Thedas is built, is like removing the legs of the table over which you have your board game.

For similar reasons, The Elder Scrolls never give you a verified or detailed story of creation, or let you meet Akatoch or the Aedra face-to-face, the games just give you a lot of contradictory stories, and let you decide which one is true, if any.

If you get too close, you will ruin the painting.

..............

The second reason is simply that if you must visit the Black City, romance Andraste, or beat the Maker's ass in single combat while uttering some silly Bond One-Liner, at least do that in the final entry of the franchise, as any future game will feel anti-climatic and will be marred by the reception the above will get.

.............

Finally, fiction is not egalitarian, I am not sure why we should go "we debunked the Dalish's religion, now we must do the same for Andraste, it is only fair"

What we shall consider, is what will serve the story better, not trying to give equal treatment to fictional factions,

.............

But this is just me. YMMV and all that.

Edited by jawal on Dec 7th 2023 at 8:22:15 PM

I see where a lot of that is coming from, but why is that any different from what we're doing right now with Fen'Herel?

Like, we've met two Elven gods now. We fought one of them in the first game even. In the third game, we have dreams and tea with another. And you can even romance him. I cannot imagine our next installment not including some boss fight or confrontation against said Elven God either.

The franchise clearly is willing to engage in some of these things.

The difference is that the Elven Gods were not given the same weight or prominence, normatively speaking, so when you remove the curtain from them, you don't affect the story the same way that you would if you revealed the Maker.

..............

For example, you will only learn the names of Fen'Herel and the other Elven Pantheon, if you read the codex entries in the Dalish's camp; otherwise, they are easy to miss.

The Dalish in general were not that prominent in the first game, the Dalish's origin is the shortest one (with the Dwarf Commoner coming in a close second); a playthough as a Dalish Warden will feel less connected to the plot; and the Dalish Quest (Nature of the Beast) is the shortest of the main four.

The expansions and DLC forget about them until Witch Hunt.

In two, you can't even play as a Dalish, and while you have a companion that is one, and  quests in their camp, those are removed from the main story (whatever that was) and come more as " hey, don't forget us, we are part of Thedas too"

And they are absent from 2's DLC too.

................

The Maker and Andraste are a more prominent part of the setting, in the first two games, you can't walk three steps without tripping over a codex about them or talking to someone who has an opinion about them; their chantries are everywhere, at least three of your companions are believers; and two others who are not, have things to say against  Andraste's faith

Even in Orzammar, you will find a Chantry priest, and people like Oghrim who swear "By Andraste's  tets"

Mages vs. Templars, the Chantry, the Fade, Demons, Spirits, the Darkspawans, the Black City, the Kings, the Lords, the Common People..etc.,

The Maker is part of all that in a way different from Fen'Herel and as such, I feel the comparison is not valid.

.................

Also, just because we have Elven Gods, it is not a reason to go and have the Maker and Andraste too. This is what happened with Supernatural:

First we had vampires and werewolves, fine,

Later, we started to have Pagan Gods, no problem.

Then you have demons , angels and the Devil himself. Alright, that sounds like a good fina....

AND NOW YOU GOT TO FIGHT GOD HAND TO HAND AND SHOW HIM WHO IS THE MAN.

At some points, you need to know when to stop, no need to take everything to its logical conclusion.

...............

Now if the setting was different, like if the majority of the events of Dragon Age Origins and 2 happened in Elven lands, and the majority of the characters were Elves, and their religion and myths were given prominence in contrast to the humans and their Maker, who are just background characters or places?

If that were the case, I would argue for the contrary: Explore the Maker and Andraste if you must, but leave the Elven Pantheon ambiguous.

But that is not the setting we have.

...............

As it is now, I personally will prefer that the nature and existence of the Maker, in relation to the story, stay like a nucleus in relation to the electrons orbiting it.

Edited by jawal on Dec 7th 2023 at 12:37:08 PM

You know its going to be really funny if Solas casually mentions that he knew Andraste because shock horror he is the maker all along!

I mean, a lot of Supernatural's problems were caused by its Franchise Zombie status. It kept the scale pretty reasonable in its original run... Then it got renewed again and again and again.

If Bioware knows when they're gonna end the Dragon Age games, there's no reason the scale would have to get out of hand.

It is kind of funny that the two most widespread and lasting creeds in the world of Thedas are the only two creeds that do not have a confirmed deity backing them up. The Maker's existence is unproven, and the Qun doesn't have deities at all.

Meanwhile, the religions that did have bonafide gods in them are long gone. Mostly because of said gods screwing things up. The Evanuris were sealed away by Solas after they pushed him to rebellion with their murder of Mythal. The Old Gods ended up bringing the Blight to Thedas, which more or less destroyed their followers' faith in them.

One of Solas' bits of in-game dialogue with Cassandra in Inquisition has him complimenting the idea of The Maker because he's a god who doesn't do anything.

Cassandra: Solas, if you do not mind me asking, what do you believe in?

Solas: Cause and effect. Wisdom as its own reward, and the inherent right of all free-willed people to exist.

Cassandra: That is not what I meant.

Solas: I know. I believe the elven gods existed, as did the old gods of Tevinter. But I do not think any of them were gods, unless you expand the definition of the word to the point of absurdity. I appreciate the idea of your Maker, a god that does not need to prove his power. I wish more such gods felt the same.

Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.

Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.

Edited by M84 on Dec 9th 2023 at 4:02:07 AM

That would be the funniest plot twist this series could do.

I doubt Bio Ware is ever going to end this series. It’ll be sequel hook after sequel hook no matter the quality.

It’s part of his and Mythals mindsets that Gods don’t need to prove themselves to their followers by revealing themselves as Gods. Only a mortal would think a God needs to prove themselves to them to be a God.

Which is why, besides being a wisp of who she once was, Mythal wouldn’t reveal herself even if she was at the apex of her power to her Dalish worshippers.

It’s a lot like how Baldurs Gate has Withers, who is clearly more than who he appears to be, but otherwise just acts as an ally, contrasting the villainous Gods of the game who openly caused the conflict for worship and shot themselves in the foot since the whole process of making people mindflayers destroys souls, denying it to said Gods. Withers even shows up at the end to the Dead Three and shit talks them because he overestimated their capabilities when they proved to be that stupid and short sighted.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 8th 2023 at 12:44:46 PM

There's also the fact that whatever the case, Mythal and Solas aren't "just" wizards either because Mythal potentially eats the Old God soul of Morrigan's child.

Solas also suggests the dragon gods are something deeply important and the Grey Wardens method of handling them is incredibly bad.

They are Mages. It's just that they were phenomenally powerful Mages who had immortality to boot. At that point, it's easy to see why mortals would come to think of them as gods.

Think about what regular Mages can already do, especially with Blood Magic. Then think about the feats Flemeth and Solas are capable of doing such as turning into a High Dragon or turning someone to stone instantly with a thought. Then remember that neither Flemeth or Solas had their full power as Evanuris when they did those feats.

The spoilered bit is even better since (BG III spoilers) said Dead Three are actually piggybacking off of Withers' / Jergal's divine power somehow. The power they are flaunting is his.

Edited by M84 on Dec 8th 2023 at 5:06:39 PM

Even their abilities as Mages was said to be on a whole other level even compared to the Elves back then, who all were powerful mages and immortal. That’s a big part of why winning a war because they were the strongest of the strong slowly lead them to be worshipped as full on deities. What they were capable of was terrifying even in a world where shaping reality to one’s whims was as easy as breathing.

Heck Withers even notes that he wasn’t really needed, because he assumed since it was HIS power they were showing off, they would have been greater threats. So he both underestimated the mortals opposing them and overestimated the three who aren’t even good at using his divinity even as dead gods. Only reviving the Dark Urge who fights against his dark impulses.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 8th 2023 at 1:22:36 AM

Defeated the envy demon yesterday,holy shit was that thing messed up

I dunno, if you save the soul of the Archdemon then Flemeth absorbs it and Solas absorbs hers.

So, that would mean Solas is an actual god.

Assuming we're not planning on retconning the Old Gods as otherwise.