Denis Villeneuve's Dune

Haha , well, I'll certainly be gettin' it as soon as I can! It's a masterpiece movie on its own... and remember, either we never get another Dune movie because the sales were too poor , or we'll get three! In which case you'd be waitin' quiiite a while.

As I wrote before, it is still my favorite scene in this movie, and both times the audience was totally captivated. The brutal, no-nonsense attitude and total power superiority of the Reverend Mother completely sells it. Her lines are all pure gold.

Yes.

No. Thufir and Piter both have the lower lip markings, and both go into super-short trances to compute things. But they're both very minor characters.

Nononono, sorry for creating any confusion there, they're out and proud

Yes, that!

Nothing, and yes. Yueh is just a doctor, conditioning is not mentioned.

Having now talked to several newcomers, I agree!

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Also: Having now seen it a second time, I can absolutely confirm: neither the word "jihad" nor the word "crusade" are used in this movie! "Holy war" is used for this potential upcoming, galaxy-shattering event, twice.

Wait, I thought this was going to be a two parter?

Hmmm, yes, that was the idea until recently... I'm really unsure, but I think it is now circulating that Denis really wants to make this a trilogy, with Dune Messiah, the second, very short book, as the third film. I looove this idea, it would be like a good version of the Godfather Trilogy.

Yes!

Edited by FellDeedsAwake on Sep 24th 2021 at 12:55:35 PM

Dune really isn't complete without Messiah. This is a good plan if true.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Finish the deconstruction of The Chosen One.

But hell, even Part II feels like an uphill battle at this point

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 24th 2021 at 5:56:37 AM

I can perfectly imagine the geniuses at WB shelving Part 2 because people went to see the film in theaters instead of HBO Max.

Was that decision made before or after the success of the first movie? Film makers have a tendency to want to make good movies into trilogies a lot, it seems (in this case it would be making a duology into a trilogy).

At least it sounds like they have plenty of material to make a trilogy out of in this case.

Haven't watched it yet because theatres are still closed in Manila (and possibly facing extinction as 1 of the local malls are replacing them w/ stores) but the spider thing sounds like something the Tleilaxu created for the Harkonnen.

Man I wish it was showing here.

It's doing pretty well in Europe right now, so hopefully once it releases elsewhere it'll do similarly well.

So my curiosity led me to watch the Lynch version… It’s certainly a lot weirder visually − on the Harkonnen side especially − and I find it funny that Mentats have Einstein Hair instead of being bald here.

Antoher sharp contrast is the Emperor − in the Villeneuve version you never see him and his name is spoken very solemnly, making him seem big and intimidating. But here he’s actually… almost cute? Not a guy you’d imagine ruling the entire fucking universe. Though since the film seems to imply he’s basically a Puppet King answering to those weird… mutant thingies, that’d justify it.

Outside of that… watching this version made me fully understand why the Villeneuve version’s first part ends where it ends. The Lynch film before and after Paul becomes a Fremen clearly feels like two different movies, and while the first half is decently paced the Muad’Dib part is rushed as hell. That’s a thing Villeneuve nailed much better − the introduction of the Fremen themselves. They’re barely characters in the 84 version because they don’t have the time to be.

Also, I had a hard time not chuckling every time Paul was called "Usul" because that’s the name of a French youtuber (and only now do I get that the name is a Dune reference).

So yeah, the film is not exactly terrible and has a lot of cool (and some not-so-cool) visual ideas, but the second half definitely needs an entire movie to be developped, otherwise it’s hard to care about… anything, really.

…

Meanwhile, the current version is approaching 80M$ according to BOM, 13M in France alone.

Edited by Lyendith on Sep 29th 2021 at 4:52:05 PM

Not to mention the Lynch version's Sardaukar look...bad XD

"Hey, Your Imperial Majesty, how should we dress up your nigh-invincible military force?"

"Hazmat suits!"

"But that's—"

"HAZMAT SUITS."

Understandable As long as it's in this order, with the good version first, it can't cause any damage. If you want even more Dune variety, I would strongly recommend my beloved Dune Miniseries! If one sees all three, one really gets a good feel for what is important in a good adaptation, and which of the creators actually cared about the source material, and which aspects were most important to them. A Dune caleidoscope.

Yes! I completely agree! Very deliberate choice by Villeneuve (and Herbert! In the book, we also don't see the Emperor in the first half, don't forget!).

As to your Puppet King theory, hmmm... everyone in the galaxy is at the mercy of the Spacing Guild, pretty much. It's interesting that Lynch immediately gave us a scene where the Guild schemes with "the bad guys" against the Atreides... and Villeneuve chose to do the same relatively early on with the Reverend Mother Mohiam scheming with the Harkonnens, though on behalf of the Emperor.

Completely agree with you on the Lynch-Fremen-length problems.

Same with the Miniseries, according to its critics. In my opinion, they're not that bad in it... but also not intimidating.

I can't even remember if the book ever describes what they're actually wearing?

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Also: while just typing this, I wondered: what is the Spoiler Policy here in this thread? Book(s), Lynch version, new version? How much?

Edited by FellDeedsAwake on Sep 29th 2021 at 6:36:24 PM

I think since it isn't out in much of the world, currently the majority of people on this thread don't care about spoilers (me when I first posted) or have read the book (me now) or both, so openly talking about who dies and what sequel hooks there might be are still pretty fair game. But once it's out everywhere I imagine the spoiler courtesy will prioritize not spoiling the film, so book developments that do so should be in markup.

Explaining what a Suk doctor is might not be a spoiler since it's backstory and book-only details, but that Yueh betrays the family is, because (from what I've heard) that's a plot twist in the film while it's given away in like chapter 2 of the book.

Edited by Synchronicity on Sep 29th 2021 at 11:44:15 AM

Indeed. The book creates tension through Dramatic Irony: we know that Yueh is the traitor but the characters do not. The story itself is told via the Framing Device of Princess Irulan writing a historical treatise, so narrative omniscience is established from the start.

Understood I'll continue not spoiling anything, since it looks like we have a few completely new people here.

As for Yueh's betrayal, that's pretty fascinating... None of the three adaptations decided to go with the book's modus operandi of just "spoiling" that right from the beginning, and all made it a big shocking twist. (...right? Haven't seen the Lynch version in decades... did he put it in, with one of his many internal monologues, and I forgot about it?) Pretty obvious adaptational decision to make... wonder how newcomers would have felt if Villeneuve would have gone the book-accurate route there?

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In Brandon Sanderson's lectures he always brings up Dune when talking about the different kinds of narration, and he always points to exactly that as to why this kind is so special; with us jumping from one character's head to another sooo many times in one chapter, and showing who knows what, and what they think they know.

Edited by FellDeedsAwake on Sep 29th 2021 at 7:06:59 PM

It's interesting to realize that Frank Herbert, in a manner analogous to J.R.R. Tolkien, wasn't just writing a story. Tolkien was writing a mythology, of which Lord of the Rings was merely one chapter. Herbert was writing a treatise on political, religious, and ecological ideas, of which Dune was merely a teaser.

I'd have to go back and watch the Lynch film again, but I am fairly sure that Yueh's treachery is at least foreshadowed... my memory isn't perfect there.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 29th 2021 at 1:23:16 PM

It’s not said outright, but Vlad gloats early on that "We have a traitor veeery close to the Duke" and the foreshadowing isn’t really subtle.

…Speaking of the Lynch version, one thing I forgot to mention is that… we hear the characters’ thoughts. That’s something banal in comics and literature, even animation, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that in a live-action movie. It’s a bit unsettling. Especially since there’s also a voiceover narration from the princess.

Edited by Lyendith on Sep 29th 2021 at 7:40:30 PM

About the only other way to fit all the necessary exposition in given the time limit would have been As You Know to an absurd degree... that or long segments of catatonia-inducing narration.

Which shows again what a masterpiece Villeneuve's Dune is He effortlessy and brilliantly gives all necessary exposition for newcomers in a visual and auditory way, as well as woven into dialogue. Like the Miniseries, it also has Paul listen to audiobooks on Arrakis and its important features, which makes sense and conveys a loooot of info. From the feedback of the three newcomers I've personally spoken to, the biggest gap of too-little-explained seems to be the Guild/Navigators, and how important they are. Would have liked to just have one little line somewhere at the start stressing how huge they are (which the Miniseries did).

The novel also helps to give people a Yank the Dog's Chain kind of Hope Spot because while the Atreides know that the Harkonnens are going to attack them and they know that being sent to Arrakis is a trap and they're trying to prepare, they're entirely unprepared for just how much greater the threat is than they thought. They even anticipated the Harkonnens bringing Sardaukar in. The fact that Yueh was beneath suspicion for them was the biggest factor in their downfall.

Edited by theLibrarian on Sep 29th 2021 at 1:50:54 PM

also Paul slept the attack due to the actions of the doctor

Speaking of the attack, I just reached Part 2 of the book.

So, in the books, people have personal shields, but if you shoot that shield with a laser, you get a nuclear explosion. I think this rule was put in to justify melee combat, as slow moving stuff can pass through the shields. From what I understand, the movie has the personal shields, but also uses lasers. I'm assuming in this continuity the shields protect the wearer from the lasers, which I suppose has the same end result of justifying melee combat.

Well the Harkonnen attack in the book also involves lasguns.

Bond Villain Stupidity is in full effect with the Harkonnen