This thread is intended for a civil, focused discussion on the various impeachment proceedings of President Trump and others in the administration.
Keep in mind that this is a narrowly focused thread, created to more closely manage this topic of discussion. The pros and cons of said impeachment were soft-banned in the General US Politics thread
for a few months, due to incessant arguing. However, there is a high desire to discuss said events and it is of such high prominence that we are willing to give this devoted thread a try.'
Things to keep in mind:
- This is about impeachment, votes on, investigations on, inquiries in, articles on, etc. Other American political discussions should go into the General Politics thread.
- Standard rules apply. Civility and appropriate forum conduct are paramount.
- Circular arguments about pros/cons are what got the topic banned in the first place. If we feel it's going circular, we will intervene. Multiple intercessions will not be looked on kindly.
- As for that intervention, mods will be monitoring and moderating this thread more closely due to the nature of the topic, and its history in the General Politics thread. We will warn and thump in an effort to keep this thread on-topic and civil, but we are more than willing to lock it if people aren't willing to course-correct.
This thread doesn't have to be a case of Why Fandom Can't Have Nice Things, but it will be, if necessary.
Edited by nombretomado on Sep 26th 2019 at 5:19:24 AM
The "yes, he'll get off" is the sticking point. The point I'm understanding is a criminal trial is less effective than a purely political impeachment trial, because the result itself will be purely political, so it provides more ammunition to use.
It doesn't have to be purely political if we punish Trump's co-conspirators.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
I don’t think anyone in the thread has said this, or even insinuated it, and more than that it’s an almost comedic misinterpretation of the arguments being presented to you. You are quite literally missing the point by a mile.
As you’ve pointed out, the impeachment process has been extremely successful at bringing Trump’s crimes to the forefront. It’s a political process, and yet that hasn’t somehow magically absolved Trump of his crimes. Fancy that. A political process has already shown the world that Trump is a criminal, so your argument is patently false.
The risk you run making this into a criminal trial is that in a criminal trial you are either guilty or not guilty. If the Senate doesn’t remove Trump, which they won’t, then if it’s a criminal process Trump is not guilty. In a political process we can account for the reality of the fact that Republicans will not vote to remove while still making sure Trump is seen as guilty in the public eye.
You’re claiming that impeachment being a political process would erase Trump’s crimes, but in fact the position you’re advocating for is the one that would erase them.
Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:43:21 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Oh, bother.
It kind of feels like some people here think that just because something is a political process that it's somehow less important or tainted.
Disgusted, but not surprised
I'm going to point out that the reason impeachment discussion was barred for so long in the US Politics thread was that it kept getting stuck in a mire of the pros/cons. I'm getting strong reminders of that in the last few pages. Let's let it rest for a bit.
This is good news.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
A procrastination in of itself
To try and break the circular argument I think I can translate for people what I think Charles is trying to say.
A political process is seen as partisan and played by politicians for their own interests, there’s no good or bad, just winning or loosing.
The legal process is seen as out for justice but possible to subvert, you can be charged, get off and still be guilty in the public eye, as long as you were charged.
The argument boils down to there being (in Charles’ mind an important chunk of) people who will buy Trump being guilty but getting away as long as he’s ‘charged’ but won’t buy that Trump did a crime if Democrats won’t put him on trial.
Yes the premise of this is that a political process is inherently less important, less fair and means less than a legal process, that might not be true but it’s a perception that’s very real in any country where politics is as hated as it is in the US.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
The Democrats are quietly debate expanding the impeachment charges beyond the Ukraine.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Good.
Because their isn't a single thing this administration hasn't done that they haven't linked to their desperate need to get all the money into their personal coffers.
Time to hoik their dealings with Russia, Turkey, Israel, Kazakhstan and Saudi Arabia out into the open for all to see get disinfected.
Praise the sun. \[T]/
Hunter is the second Republican member of Congress to plead guilty to federal crimes this fall, following Rep. Chris Collins (R-N.Y.), who pleaded guilty to insider trading charges and resigned in October. Coincidentally, Collins was the first member of Congress to endorse Donald Trump for president in 2016 and Hunter was the second.
It will have a minimum effect on impeachment but the Democrats must continue hammering the criminals in the GOP as much as possible. Every single one of these guys who goes to jail weakens the culture of crime and enforces the law being something they can't destroy.
It's too light but it's another loss.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Wasn't a tape a key factor in Nixon's downfall?
"The Democrats are quietly debate expanding the impeachment charges beyond the Ukraine."
While I think it was a minor error to limit the impeachment to the Ukraine business in the first place, that ship may have sailed.
IIRC yes it was. Nicknamed "The Smoking Gun Tape" once it was turned over everybody pretty much told Nixon he was done after that.
https://intelligence.house.gov/report/#executivesummary
From the Intelligence Impeachment Report:
“Senior U.S. officials, including the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Acting Chief of Staff, the Secretary of Energy, and others were either knowledgeable of or active participants in an effort to extract from a foreign nation the personal political benefits sought by the President.”
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
More updates:
- Call Records show Devin Nunes in contact with indicted Giuliani associate:
- The Ukraine has had its first official admit Trump tried to bribe them.
- The phone records more or less confirms that Giuliani is guilty as fuck.
I don't think Trump will be arrested but if we can get Giuliani, Nunes, and Pompeo down then this will all be worth it.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
A quick review of how we got here, reposted from Reddit:
Here’s a rundown of some of the felony convictions — directly linked to Trump and his campaign — that stemmed from Mueller’s investigation:
- Manafort was an unregistered foreign lobbyist for Viktor Yanukovych, the pro-Russia former President of Ukraine. (!!!)
- The debunked “Ukraine election meddling to help Hillary” narrative came from pro-Russia Ukraine leadership, Russian disinformation efforts and MANAFORT, aka, inside the Trump election campaign.
- Cohen and Manafort shared internal campaign data with Russia/Ukraine.
- Flynn helped broker a “peace deal” with the pro-Russia leader (ya know, the super corrupt one!) of Ukraine that essentially would have handed control of the country to Russia. (It failed, thank god.)
- Papadopoulos bragged about his role in Trump’s corruption in a London bar. He inadvertently became the catalyst for the FBI’s initial investigation into corruption inside Trump’s election campaign.
- Stone worked as a backchannel with Russia’s hacked DNC emails in an effort to damage Clinton’s election campaign.
- Gates helped Manafort launder tens of millions of dollars through more than a dozen unreported foreign bank accounts. He cooked books.
- Cohen also cooked books for Trump and Trump Foundation, which was recently fined $2M for a “shocking pattern of illegality” to benefit Trump’s election campaign.
- The former President of the Ukraine, Yanukovych, fled to Russia and has been since convicted of high treason.
A few weeks ago, IN COURT, Trump admitted to illegality as part of this fine/judgment.
ALL OF THEM (except Trump, who is an unindicted co-conspirator dubbed “Individual 1”) are now convincted felons. ALL OF THEM were hired by and worked at the direction of Trump.
Giuliani merely picked up the role as Trump’s campaign fixer after the rest of those fuckers got caught.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Wait, they were actually convicted? Incredible.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
That is actually 99% of why I'm all about impeachment. Not because Trump himself will have his crimes exposed but it can dismantle the other people involved in this evil conspiracy.
Roger Stone was a major force for evil in Washington. So was Manafort.
We've gotten a few of the Ringwraiths and Saruman.
That's a real thing to proud of.
◊
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 4th 2019 at 12:11:14 PM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
The opening statements have begun. 3/4 for impeachment.
Turley has a lengthy speech twice as long as the other three explaining why it isn't.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Republicans are already acting up.
This is a battle between those who are attacking and those who are retreating.
Whoever does the most of the first will win America.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
And the Republican tantrum has begun.
What are they saying? Anything substantial, or just the usual "witch hunt" nonsense?
That is dumb.
I'm sorry you keep saying that but every time you say it, all it says is, "Trump isn't guilty of any crimes." Treating impeachment as a criminal trial is the only way to show the world what he's done is criminal.
Yes, he'll get off but that won't undo the damage done to him or his cronies.
What is the value of a "political process" handling of impeachment versus treating this as a matter of criminal activity?
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:14:59 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.