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Ah yeah Ive tnose Bard variants of songs before. Good stuff.
I thought the game made pretty clear absolutely nothing is sacred for Edelgard if the situation calls for it, and there's no better example for this than Azure Moon's Hegemon Edelgard. As far supplementary material goes, there's also that one quote from Heroes while she's in her Flame Emperor costume.
I will say though, Edelgard's motives overall are presented in a very convoluted way overall in contrast to Dimitri/Claude/Rhea, and I still wonder just how intentional that could have been.
Ehhh, Hegemon Edelgard still has the "Emperor Edelgard is not epic enough for the Final Boss role" angle; fits the route perfectly, but it's hard to tell how much of that is intentional symbolism and how much is the devs just wanting a cool-looking boss.
Found another random thing that's going to bother me until I find the answer. So on TCRF there's this line listed in the "Unused Endings" section:
Edited by YnK on Dec 5th 2020 at 9:00:44 AM
Speaking of which, why did she used that Armour in AM and not SS and VW. Everyone is mad that Khalid/Claude vanquished Nemesis, but no one talks about that Armour or Shambahla redux 17 playing in the "Oil and water" Cutscene.
To me that feels more like a reminder to the devs themselves to not give both characters an paired ending.
Also I totally did not know Seteth and Ingrid's A+ Support is Azure Moon exclusive. I'll add that here ASAP.
The implications given are that AM Edelgard gets more time to prepare against the Kingdom, while in SS and VW Byleth and Claude's attack against the imperial capital is more or less a surprise attack.
Yeah, there are like four different Edelgards in Heroes. There's a student, the Flame Emperor, the Flame Emperor but in a dress, and the Adrestian Emperor. Two of those are apparently the one who vanquished Sothis. Like, simultanously. And none of them have an issue with fighting alongside Rhea. Nor does Byleth have any issues with Kronya; nor Marth or Linde with Gharnef; nor Alm, Celica, Rudolf, or Mila with Duma; nor Takumi or Oboro with any Nohrians; nor Edelgard with any of the various gods.
Heroes is also a game where Child Sothis has an independent physical form, Claude doesn't get Failnaught, Camilla is queen of Nohr, the OCs are shocked when Loki drops her disguise despite having met and recognised her a bunch of times before, herons can fight, Leanne speaks Tellusian, Micaiah can fly under her own power, Rudolf is a laid-back, doting father, Rudolf is a laid-back doting father, and Ferdinand uses contractions. Also Nailah marries Rafiel when Tibarn is clearly her one true love.
Based on all that, Heroes is clearly taking liberties with the characters, and it's a mistake to cite it in support or opposition of anything that happens in a mainline game.
Heroes also defies the laws of reality, because the summon device brings the Goddess of Death back to life, and her canonical motivation for seeking to always slaughter all of Zenith is that were bringing people back to life which defies the natural order(Also it gives her a power boost, so that helps too).
But Edelgard herself is actively avoiding the divine beings around there according to her FB with Lissa. Including Sothis.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 12:53:51 PM
Fodlan has more or less stayed the same for a thousand years, with no one but Edelgard making a serious attempt against the status quo. Edelgard believes that if she fails the evils of Fodlan will likely last for yet another thousand years, if not even longer. That's why she's willing to do absolutely anything to make sure that she wins here and now. No matter how many she hurts or kills, it will pale against the suffering caused by an unjust system for such a long span of time.
Actually the opposite is true. As soon as she learns that there are gods walking around in Askr and that Sothis is among them she immediately seeks her out to ask as many questions as possible.
And for me that's the biggest tragedy of all, since Sothis being amnesiac (at least the ones currently being available) means Edelgard won't get the info she would want from her.
She could end up befriending her in a very unlikely best case scenario, but I doubt that would have much weight given Heroes's mechanics lets you marry anyone with anyone, logic be damned.
Her desire to conquer Fodlan. It's really that simple. People say I'm insulting them by saying they're not understanding something but really, what else an I supposed to say when he goal is so simple yet people don't seem to get it.
She's willing to work with the Agarthans because some of their goals are the same and she's confident of being able to dispose of them afterwards. Why didn't she work with Dimitri or Claude? Because she doesn't want to work with them. She wants to conquer their nations. That is not some secondary goal. Establishing a united Fodlan ruled by Adrestia is her primary goal. So she makes use of whatever resources she can.
Again, it's really not hard to understand.
Also, Nailah and Rafiel have always been married ever since Radiant Dawn. It's not a new addition to the lore. They've been married since before they even crossed the desert and met Micaiah. It's more apparent in the Japanese version and it was something the localisation didn't pick up on.
Edited by RangerJackWalker on Dec 5th 2020 at 1:29:19 AM
Fodlan has not stayed the same, if it had Opera Houses, Faerghus, Leicester, the Southern Church, Officers Academy, Always the same Houses remain in power for all noble families, etc. would never exist in the first place.
Fodlan has been changing for a long time, it's just not abrupt or rapid paced like modern society is(As change took a long time to implement big changes), and wars of conquest typically don't fix the problem because infrastructure destroys and makes progress take longer, rather technological advancements do, and those can easily happen for the worse as the worse practices and disregard for human life Industrialization showed.
If Fodlan had stayed the same Rhea and the faithful would have been much better positioned like they were 1000 years ago, while the changing of times saw Rhea lose more and more soft power and what hard power she has could never compensate on its own.
For five hundred years it stayed relatively the same, but with the first invasion by Dagda has followed large scale conflicts and fighting for centures by either invaders or rebellions.
Edit:shes not seeking them out. Its Lissa who makes her seek out Sothis because Lissa counters her worldview. Indeed interacting with her and seeing that others agree with Lissa is the first time shes actually realized how different people feel.
She has multiple primary goals. Including a desire to kick all Nabataens out of her society so they can'y have power.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 1:41:25 AM
"Her desire to conquer Fodlan. It's really that simple. People say I'm insulting them by saying they're not understanding something but really, what else an I supposed to say when he goal is so simple yet people don't seem to get it."
I'm reminded of that comic where Spider-Man calls out Sauron how he's wasting his technology on insane villainy.
Spider-Man: "You can rewrite DNA on the fly and you're using it to turn people into dinosaurs? But with tech like that you could cure cancer!"
Sauron: "But I don't want to cure cancer. I want to turn people into dinosaurs!"
I do understand that Edelgard wants to conquer Fodland and kill the Underground Nazis and doesn't really care which order she does it. Honestly I don't think she even sees a distinction. To her they're probably just another faction she needs to crush on her way to domination and if they help her take out the others, then why not take them up on that.
I don't find it particularly rational since "Getting rid of Nazis" is easily on the top of anyone's "How to make the World a Better Place" list. But I'm not operating on the understanding that Edelgard is a rational person, or rather, not as rational as the average person. I'm not comparing her to a Vulcan.
Where is the Nazi comparison coming from, again?
You get it! I Wish there were Cookies I could give, you deserve one.
Also adding to what you are saying, the Agarthans also have What looks to be an Eye as an logo, which is the symbol of the Sky Father, Dyaus Pita and is tied to the Black Sun, an Symbol used by the Nazis. Also the Cliche with high tech is also there and the fact that their ideologically counterpart is an Multiculturalist and Globalist who believes in Equality is Dark-skinned and mixed, thus an symbol of what they hate the most.
Edit:One of the founders of the Original Nazi party was an member of the Thule Society, a Völkish-cult of wierdos who believed that Shambahla was the Homeland of the Aryans and the place where the "Ruler of the World" lived.
Edited by Tropetalker on Dec 5th 2020 at 11:47:11 AM
...Pardon me, but are you trying to make a joke or did you misunderstand my question?
A number of new age, occult, theosophy, and Neo-Nazis had the Aryan ideal race originating from Shambhalla. Indeed ties to Buddhism due to the esoteric and the occult and other religions happened a lot over the years in these groups, especially after WWII.
Combine that with them being all being literally sickly pale white instead of the peach skin tone, viewing themselves as the only humans and saviors of the world, teaching that empathy for non-Agarthans is blasphemy, having instigated a genocide of a race they despise, and viewing all other beings as beasts, and its clead where the inspiration for them is.
Sothis also takes inspiration from new age theories of alien visitors from Sirius.
Edit: It also makes the obsession with Sothis and her Childrens power and flesh also fit. Because obsession with Christianity and Abrahamic artifacts was also true of these groups(Thus the Indiana Jones movies that dealt with them).
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 2:40:35 AM
Heroes revolves around alternate universes, so I guess the hand-wave for literally anything is "alternate universe where that does work actually". For Three Houses the obvious application there is that characters can come from any of the four routes, but also variations thereon. Like, maybe one character is from male Byleth Crimson Flower world, and another is from female Byleth Crimson Flower, and another is from Crimson Flower but Edelgard slipped on a banana skin and broke her mask, and so on. I belive it's also said/suggested that the summoning process causes the 'hero' to obey the summoner at least to some extent, hence why the villains can be summoned.
...Which is all a long-winded way of saying, yeah, Heroes can't really be used as a source to discuss other games.
It adds some details to the character without contradicting it at times.
But yeah when they go for those kinds of Alternate versions we know when they are doing so(IE the Dream version of Fate characters by Lil'Azura, seasonal and/or special variants like Wedding or camping).
Others are straight up still the same character, as IS associates Edelgard with Male Byleth, and the other three with Female Byleth. They do the same for Corrin, who consistently has Male Corrin as Hoshidan and Girl Corrin as Nohrian even in FEH. The games consistent on a number of things, only 3H FB really flub on some of the things characters say or do and its clear they dont know whats going on in the game than intentional.
Lissa doesn't "make" Edelgard seek Sothis out. Lissa mentions that Sothis is around and Edelgard immediately decides to seek her out. Which makes sense since this is following the CF route where Edelgard has spent years believing the Goddess is against everything she believes in just to have one of the Goddess' children support her and her being generally confused why this is the case.
Also Fodlan is definitely pretty static. Maybe not in comaprison with most most fantasy worlds or with bronze age societies, but compare Europe in 500 AD to Europe in 1500 AD, or Europe in 1 AD to Europe in 1000 AD, or Europe in 500 BC to Europe in 500 AD, and it's clear that Fodlan has stayed remarkably similar over the last millennium.
How much have the peoples outside of Fodland changed?
We don't know.
Edelgsrd doesnt see Byleth as fully Nabataen. Indeed the constant reference to them being human because Jeralt is human. Its when they awaken the power of the Goddess that she sees them as being destined to side against her, and as her A Support reveals she believes they lack emotions and she disregards Byleth saying otherwise. So she dehumanizes them even when they side with her and shes supposed to be head over heels with them.
You mean when civilization lost things in Europe and gained others like a increase in Agriculture? Because outside of Europe the sciences and mathematics were expanding at a vastly faster rate in Islam ruled territories.
Like progress was slow in Europe, but it was still happening, and the same is the case for Fodlan. Cannons are things in Foldan, and Opera Houses are a 16th century structure that requires incredibly levels of understanding of mathematics to build and a understanding of which makes it one of the more modern takes of society in a Fire Emblem game. The game never treats its neighbors as more advance than Fodlan, indeed the fact that they still trade with outsiders is a sign that society advances even despite its isolation towards Foreigners typically being frowned upon in Fodlan, because goods and food from numerous nations coming in shows it isn't being held back, as trade is one of the major means of societal advancement.
If they were completely cut off society would actually be regressing, because lack of contact with those with different groups has caused isolated tribes to lose progress and eventually forget tools and skills they once had.
Hell the fact Crests sre being researched and Magic Schools also serve as institutions to study magic and mathematics like algebra shows how they are progressing.
And with what we see of magnifying glasses, autopsies being performed, and how easy to produce books are implied to be things that were banned 1000 years ago were eventually allowed to advance, as Word of God confirmed that something tried to rapidly advance society, which we know the results of what happened the last time that happened (Agarthans).
Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 5:00:45 AM
Granted, but I guess my problem with Crimson Flower is that we never find out how she came to the conclusion that society is so unjust that burning it down justifies working with Nazis. (If that sounds condescending, it wasn't my intention; I sometimes communicate unclearly and felt I should highlight the bit that genuinely bugs me). Compare this to Verdant Wind, where we get quite a bit of Claude's backstory. We know that Claude was mistreated all his life for being mixed-race, and both his mother's and father's cultures look down on the other as barbarians and cowards respectively; living in Fódlan, he has to be constantly on his guard to prevent anyone finding out about his Almyran heritage. Having lived in both cultures, he knows that Fódlans are brave and Almyrans are civilised, so his goal of breaking down barriers bringing people together in friendship and understanding makes perfect sense.
But why does Edelgard think the Crest system is unfair? The Vestras and Bergliezes don't have Crests and they are two of the most important families in the Empire; the DLC further shows that the Nuvelles are a minor house of little importance despite having a rare Crest. Likewise, the Edmunds managed to get a seat at the Alliance roundtable despite lack of a Crest, and indeed Margrave Edmund goes out of his way to conceal Marianne's Crest. The Ordelias also appear to lack a Crest (it's possible they have Gloucester or Charon, but Lysithea being so much more fragile than Edelgard suggests that both of her Crests are artificial whereas only one of Edelgard's is). Edelgard herself says she only got to be heir to the throne because all her siblings are either dead or insane, yet she's the only one among them who bears a Crest.
Why does she think the system of nobility has to go? She herself is a beneficiary of the system, since she's, you know, a princess. Did she have to live as a commoner while in the Kingdom? It's possible, but unlikely, since Arundel doesn't appear to have made any attempt to conceal his being an Imperial noble; at any rate, you'd think it would have come up in her support with Dorothea. Moreover, this is clearly a decision she came to in relative haste, since she needs Ferdinand to point out that she needs to actively work against embedded privilege instead of simply declaring that the best person will get the job.
I'm not saying she can't possibly swallow her hatred of the Nazis to achieve her long-term goals. I just wish we knew how she came to hold those particular long-term goals, and why she feels so strongly.
Asking questions is more evidence that Edelgard in Heroes isn't the one from Three Houses.
Edited by VampireBuddha on Dec 6th 2020 at 12:14:20 PM
I know you haven't played Heroes, but the summoned characters ARE explicitly the ones from their games.
The Edelgard in this context is the one who won. So I can see her being curious, like it's not that different from her interactions with Manuela.
The game wants you to think that El works with TWSITD purely for pragmatic reasons simply as a way to show that she operates on logic and plans things ahead; in contrast to Dimitri, who is powered by emotions and would never even consider working with an enemy. She sort of has a point there.
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