Fire Emblem Three Houses (Spoiler Thread)

Is it completely thought? Don't get me wrong, while the prospect of war likely plays a part in it, Edelgard also does a joke with a similar grim fashion as soon as chapter 1 of BE, and that one ends up so unfunny and poor in taste she quickly makes clear she didn't meant to be mean with that. I wouldn't pass the possibility she simply sucks at trying to be funny, given how Dimitri's dialogue also suggests he isn't happy over the idea of fighting her.

You sure you didn't meant to say the Church? I don't recall Edelgard ever saying something among those lines.

IIRC Hubert explains why and her support chain with Hanneman suggests she sees the church as the one responsible for the suffering by creating the status quo, leaving the agarthans and the corrupt imperial nobles as the dudes abusing said status quo for their own means (This is ultimately a matter of perspective, so don't expect to ever see the fanbase reach a consensus on that).

Hanneman: I cannot say what lies in your past, yet I have seen your ideals, and witnessed the power of your two Crests. I feel certain that you, too, are a victim of this world, just like my dear sister...

Also, knowledge about the agarthans and their history is very scarce in-universe, and the only sources available are either hidden behind her enemies (including Thales) or can be found in an book of in-universe conspiracy theories where there's some stuff that's blatantly wrong (AKA that one abyssal text).

About your rewrite @Vampire Buddha, I have admit I'm not a fan of the idea of removing Edelgard's agency of things so she's a full blown Unwitting Pawn compared to canon. While I do see the appeal of your proposal, I also actually kind of like more the dynamic the 3H's writers went with in between Edelgard's Empire and the Agarthans.

Also this.

Edited by Blackress on Dec 4th 2020 at 11:33:25 AM

Seems like everyone's missing the point. Edelgard sees he Agarthans as useful allies to conquer and unite Fodlan. Everything else is secondary to that and serves to explain why her goal is what it is.

Making her the pawn is kinda stupid honestly.

Edited by RangerJackWalker on Dec 4th 2020 at 11:32:34 AM

Wander, I highly suggest you play the game's story before diving in here. This place tends to be a landmine,

My idea was that she freely chose to wage war on Rhea, and allied with the Agarthans because, as you said, she thought they would be useful allies. I also wanted Crimson Flower to give some information that isn't obtained on the other routes.

What you don't get is that Edelgard's decision to ally with those who slither in the dark is not properly explained. Here is her train of thought:

I have been imprisoned and tortured by these irredeemably evil anti-Church Nazis who tortured my sisters and brothers to insanity and/or death. Clearly the Church is responsible for the bad things and so the correct course of action is to team up with the people who did all the bad things do me in order to defeat those people's enemies.

Or, let's consider the chain of events in Edelgard's life. This list uses only information gleaned from the game itself.

1. Born
2. Cabinet stages a coup and seizes power, leaving her father as a figurehead.
3. Flees to the Kingdom with Uncle Volkhart.
4. Mother flees the Empire seperately.
5. Mother marries King Lambert, but is unable to visit her.
6. Meets Dimitri.
7. Teaches Dimitri to dance.
8. Mother and stepfather die in a massacre which she knows was orchestrated by Nazis.
9. Received a dagger from Dimitri as a gift.
10. Returns to the Empire.
11. Imprisoned under the castle alongside her siblings by the Nazis
12. Watches as her siblings are tortured to at least one of insanity or death by the Nazis
13. Is horrifficly tortured by Nazis.
14. Gets the Crest of Flames.
15. Decides to team up with the Nazis to destroy the Church.

The game never actually explains why the privileged princess came to the conclusion that society is unfair, nor why she feels so strongly that it must be torn down that she is able to overcome her own intense, visceral hatred for the Nazis in order to work with them.

I mean, I could see Ashnard making such a decision, but he's openly psychopathic, and Path of Radiance never portrays him as anything other than gleefully evil. Edelgard is portrayed as the heroine Fódlan needs if she's your ally, or as a well-meaning antivillain if she's your enemy. This is a weakness in the story.

Dude you're overthinking it. Edelgard hates the church and the basement dwellers and want to destroy them. She thinks her chance of successfully doing so is higher if she postpones the fight with the basement dwellers until after the churhc is destroyed, so that is what she does.

It's before the final battle. Edelgard points out that Byleth is a Child of the Goddess just like Rhea, and ever since their hair changed color, she assumed that Byleth would side with Rhea. But they sided with Edelgard instead, and she still doesn't quite understand why.

She sort of explains why she thinks the society is unfair in her C+ support.

And a problem lies in how much of what Edelgard says is actually true(Which she thinks is true), because the Prime Minister only acted after her father tried to gain all power in the Empire, and proved he was incompetent by causing a political disaster with the Hyrm Rebellion that was solved by the Nobles he tried to take power away from, and likewise it is Caspar and Lindhardt fathers who actually have power in the Empire, as the Prime Minister is as toothless as her father is with soft power being his tool to remain relevant.

The trauma inflicted by the Dubstep doesn’t mesh well with Edelgard currently or why she works with the Dubstep crew, in part as her past is meant to make her “cute” with even her fear of rats being played for comedy, unlike Dimitri and Rhea whose trauma is played 100% seriously because they aren’t the face of the game.

Like seriously realistically Edelgard should in fact resent her father for being useless to help her siblings, and for being bad at being Emperor in the first place that it lead to it, but nothing. Meanwhile she has even more childish reasons for going after the Church in her “Goddess didn’t save me = Goddess is a lie and thus faith is weakness.”

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 4th 2020 at 2:01:45 AM

My take's that political power was likely the reason Duke Aegir let the experiments happen given how much the empire loves Crests overall.

True, the game barely dwells on Edelgard having 2 crests outside of her route, and the most you get in other routes -and by that I mean Verdant Wind- is Lysithea's case and how her convo against Edelgard more or less suggest both went through the same experiment.

That reminds me, was Edelgard during her stay in the Kingdom aware her mom was there as well? Due to how much Lambert and co. tried to hide her presence there and how Patricia wasn't able to see her per Cornelia's words, I highly doubt that's the case.

Not everyone shares the same line of thought nor they handle trauma the same way, and saying present Edelgard doesn't mesh well with her past would be a crass understatement overall. If you didn't like the direction KT/IS went with her then just say so.

Edited by Blackress on Dec 4th 2020 at 2:41:17 AM

Edelgard allying with the Agarthans is the same as Arvis allying with Manfroy. Except while Arvis made the mistake of genuinely trusting Manfroy, Edelgard didn't and plans to destroy them too.

Except it was the nobles who first attempted to gain power. Ferdinand himself says the position of Prime Minister want hereditary until his family came into power and made it so.

Edited by RangerJackWalker on Dec 4th 2020 at 4:22:33 AM

As I've said before, anti-Co S sentiment is most likely common in the Empire. Perhaps Edelgard's view on the Church just came from that.

But we got Manuela who is pretty devout.

Three Houses could have benefited from NPC towns to help paint a better picture.

Yes, but Manuela's only one person.

What’s the ratio? What about Dorothea?

They're similar, but the context behind both are completely different and so the context makes it more hesdscratching.

Arvis was never tortured by Manfroy and the Loptyr cult into being a weapon, his father didnt get overthrown for incompetence by corrupt-and-or-nuanced individuals, and most importantly, he doesnt share a single value that his abusers had with him.

These things all define Edelgard, and makes it all the more clear that its referencing Arvis but requires just ignoring how someone would realistically not work with them in this situation except if the plot says so. Like even allying with them was Huberts idea, not her own.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 4th 2020 at 7:10:30 AM

Dorothea seems agnostic bordering on being an non-believer.

Def a non-believer or god hater in the type skip.

Yeah, I will say Arvis does have a better reason for working with the Loptyr cult because we actually get more context about why he did so, like blackmail. And even then it has some flimsy parts.

Edelgard's reasoning is explained by Hubert and otherwise left to the audience's imagination.

Is she really working with them or a pawn or something in between? Depends on who's telling the story.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 4th 2020 at 9:48:56 AM

I definitely think separating them from the ones who performed experiments on her family would work. Like they "taught" people how to perform those experiments, and then killed said Crestologists after they served a purpose. It fits their role of working under others while still being instigators then throwing their filthy "Beast" allies under the bus after they serve their purpose. It would also keep them complicit, but just distant enough for her to be more "tolerant" of working with them.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 4th 2020 at 7:09:41 AM

The way I'd handle it is that the Slithers conducted the experiments but through Imperial proxies and in order to win Edelgard's cooperation made a show of " rescuing her and killing her abusers."

Then we can have a dramatic reveal later.

Yeah thats similar to what I mean. Proxies who perform the experiments for them, instead of directly.

Plus they have the advantage of having Edelgard's gratitude. You could set up Thales as an evil mentor to Edelgard in this scenario, even making him an evil foil to Byleth.

@Omega Radiance You just seem incapable of understanding how someone could have grander ambitions than petty revenge. Edelgard is fine with delaying her personal revenge if it helps get accomplish her grander goal of uniting Fodlan through conquest. There really isn’t anything confusing or contradictory about this behaviour. A desire for revenge doesn’t have to be an all consuming obsession.

Edited by RangerJackWalker on Dec 5th 2020 at 12:58:43 PM

I have plenty of characters I love that have grand ambitions and aren't bound by petty matters. Like Goddamned Ashnard whose ambitions are grand but he's also flippin' insane, or Zephiel grand ideals formed in part from he suffered at the hands of his father, but also due to the implied brain damage from the posion radically altering him as a person till he resembled nothing like the innocent youth he once was.

Mister Tambourine Man can straight up tell you how much I praise Yamato Hotsuin from Devil Survivor in the SMT thread who actually has a lot of the ideals Edelgard does, and the person against him acts on irrational revenge and how I dont have the best opinion of said guy. Precisely because I can understand where Yamato is coming from even if I don't agree with him.(I choose the alien route)

Edelgard doesn't work for me in part because the writers don't ever go all the way, and that Edelgard can be so incredibly childish in her reactions does nothing to dissuade that. I wasn't even against Edelgard originally, but as I came to understand the game more, my opinions changed.

Edit: I also think the game doesnt do Edelgard justice the way it should, I dont even need a battle against the Dubstep, but the way they tend to use her past to infantilize and make jokes at her expense, when Dimitri, Marianne, and Rhea get the ugly side of trauma, is one of the things I really dislike. Bernadetta is the same where her trauma is used as a joke, or Constance trauma is likewise made into a gag.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 1:28:05 AM

That was surprisingly long for something not addressing the original point at all.

Weve been doing this for ages and have yet to agree. her higher ambitions do feel pretty petty in themselves at times, like holding her preconceptions of Rhea as the standard for all Nabataens is not a rational or grand viewpoint when shes adamant on separating all things divine from the mortal as a grand ambition based on preconceived bias, or how Sothis is a False Goddess because she never saved her when she was being experimented on and that became the foundation for her viewing all faith as being weakness, which, y'know, is a petty way to look at it. Especially as Dimitri holds similar views on the goddess not acting but came to a different conclusion on what the problem is.

Plus insulting me by saying I cant see a character having grand ambitions beyond petty matters is already dragging it away from the original point, cause Sothis knows Its not like I never mentioned Yamato Hotsuin in this very thread before or how I understand his idea of a Meritocracy, and he's a Moral Sociopath. Hell me and Red talked about Ashnard and his craziness before here and how enjoyable he is.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 5th 2020 at 2:36:06 AM

Ranger: No, the problem is that you don't seem to accept the concept of crossing lines. People who aren't complete monsters have things they aren't willing to do, even villains.

For example, since the middle of the Golden Age, Batman has refused to shoot guns for various deep-seated psychological reasons. In other words, shooting a gun is a line he does not cross.

But the in Final Crisis, Darkseid is going around destroying the universe, and so Batman, in a final act of desperation, finally crosses that line and shoots Darkseid with a gun to kill him. This makes sense in the story, because Darkseid has most life on Earth under his control, and is in the process of committing omnicide. Using a gun is a last resort.

We know Edelgard hates the Nazis for what they did to her. Therefore, working with the Nazis is a line she has to cross.

What is it that drives her to cross that line?

The game does not answer this question satisfactorily. All we get is "Dragons shouldn't be in charge and also fuck Crests". Edelgard knows that most of the bad things in her life are the direct result of the Nazis' actions. So again I ask:

Why does she hate the Church so much that she crosses the line of working with the Nazis?

Why is she so desperate to conquer Faerghus and Leicester that she crosses the line of working with the Nazis?

Or, from the perspective of an Edelgard supporter:

Why does Edelgard consider working with the Nazis, even temporarily, to be an acceptable price to pay for the greater good?

Hey I have found an better version of Edge of Dawn:

https://youtu.be/lINo1s4s38A