Fire Emblem Three Houses (Spoiler Thread)

He takes corpses of the fallen enemy and chucks them off garreg Mach so hard they become meteors, blanketing Enbarr in craters.

Hubert: Take notes, take notes.

So I haven't played the game, nor do I intend to, but I'm just recently getting interested in the game's story. I do have some thoughts from what I've seen and heard about the game, though. I'll preface them by saying I ship Fyleth/Edelgard, and would choose Crimson Flower. As such I have some thoughts about:

Edelgard and Claude's roles in the story:

• It really seems like an on-screen confrontation with TWSITD should've been the latter portion of Edelgard's path, not Claude's.
• There really didn't seem to need to be any reason for an on-screen confrontation between Claude and Edelgard in Claude's story, and the fact that it happens makes the story seem imbalanced to portray her as more villainous than she probably should have been.
• The on-screen confrontation with Nemesis seems given to Claude just to make sure he has a final opponent. Which he actually did need.
• Edelgard and Claude probably should've joined forces at the end, if you chose either of their paths.

Major characters' motivations, especially in relationship to Byleth (in alphabetical order):

• Claude:
  • What you (Byleth) mean to me: Honestly, you're super cool, but it doesn't really matter to me as much as some of the others.
  • With your help, my goal is to: Make sure someone organizes your country so that there's a decent person to work with and get good stuff done.
  • If you don't side with me, my fate will be: Actually pretty ambiguous. Whether I live or die, things will be fine, but I'd really rather live.
  • My main flaw is: My lack of personal investment to others, and needs to balance my lands internally, keeps me level headed. But it also means I can't take decisive action that probably would've ended things faster.
• Dimitri:
  • What you (Byleth) mean to me: I need you to believe in me, so that I won't be abandoned again.
  • With your help, my goal is to: Regain my heart. Reclaim what is rightfully mine, the lands I was framed and exiled from.
  • If you don't side with me, my fate will be: My Blood Knight tendencies will get me killed as I confront those I believe screwed me over, without fully facing those who actually did screw me over.
  • My main flaw is: Because I was royally screwed over as a kid, I need to be talked down from my path of VENGEANCE, and to be able to trust again.
• Edelgard:
  • What you (Byleth) mean to me: I outright love you, male or female. And I need you to believe in me, otherwise I will be a lonely weapon, win or lose.
  • With your help, my goal is to: Fix this messed up world order a soon as possible, and take down the people who I believe (Rhea) and know (TWSITD) made it that way.
  • If you don't side with me, my fate will be: My Well-Intentioned Extremist tendencies will get me killed as I overextend myself with no one to support me but one of my enemies.
  • My main flaw is: I was made a Tyke Bomb, so not only do I need to do a lot and quickly So I can serve the greater good before it's too late. Also, I can't trust a lot of people around me, which has left my thinking relatively closed-minded.
• Rhea:
  • What you (Byleth) mean to me: I need you to get my mom back.
  • With your help, my goal is to: Kill those who (partly because of my own secrecy), attempted to kill me. And then hopefully get my mom back.
  • If you don't side with me, my fate will be: Whether or not you side with me, I'll probably wind up dying from some combination of my enemies, and my bloodrage.
  • My main flaw is: My secrecy, and complacency with an imbalanced status quo.
• Seteth:
  • What you (Byleth) mean to me: Not a lot, but my family likes you.
  • With your help, my goal is to: Keep my family safe.
  • If you don't side with me, my fate will be: Either live, die, or return to exile.
  • My main flaw is: I'm not a mind reader, because if I was, and the above four actually talked to me, we probably could've avoided a lot of this mess.

Was I wrong on any of that?

Also, there's some interesting alphabetical theme naming going on:

• B - yleth
• C - laude
• E - delgard
• D - imitri
• F - Flayn (yes I'm counting her, given her importance to possible main ally Seteth)
• —-
• R - hea
• S - eteth
• T - hose who slither in the dark

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 3rd 2020 at 10:27:13 AM

I mean Edelgard is very clear thst she, and she alone, believes shes the only one who knows whats best and refuses anything less than the complete subjugation of the continent. The Church was a non factor for her on AM and VW once she had Rhea taken captive, but she was still intentionally causing internal conflict in the Alliance on every route by putting half the Alliance into siding with her by exlloiting those who were tortured by her own torturers or by exploiting the opportunists. Something she also does in the Kingdom but to an even greater extent using the Dubstep and Cornelia on any non-CF, when opportunists are already rallying up to her even on CF.

The game wanting Unification = Good to be a point on every route makes no sense to anyone except if you read it by a Warring States era lens(But without all the Warring States). Because thats the one point the game really wants to stick with on every route.

FEH gets on that Edelgard really doesn't handle people who have differing values from her well, considering all it took was Lissa to rattle Edelgard to her core by having views that align no where with hers.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 3rd 2020 at 8:44:18 AM

Edelgard literally starts the game off trying to kill Claude, something she's completely unrepentant about, and you think they should join forces?

You know what, I can't even complain. Look at the way the game presents Edelgard: CF is written on the assumption that Edelgard just telling you more about herself was sufficient to make her sympathetic, as she does not actually do anything differently on that route.

The writers clearly thought that Edelgard Did Nothing Wrong.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Dec 3rd 2020 at 8:52:03 AM

Whats funny is that she only seems to reach this kind of conclusion on how similar their ideals are...after the timeskip. Because shes the most antagonistic of the three towards Claude and vice versa before the time skip. It made some of FE Hs more glaring unit errors due to them not having all the games details(Like Dimitri and Claude being rivals) more obvious when thr end result is...none of that.

And its more that the game just...ignores whst she did before then rather than say she did nothing wrong. Like if they brought it up more itd honestly be likely they would affirm it. Instead the game really wants you to do a out of sight, out of mind with it.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 3rd 2020 at 8:55:18 AM

Popcorn, anybody? I also have nachos.

“What,” I say tiredly.

Do you have cyanide?

Edited by fredhot16 on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:00:47 AM

Let's see... yes, I have cyanide! Here, have some happiness to go with it.

Eternal Recurrence can never be escaped. The cycle of Samsara.

I get it's a sore point. I'd just like to know where I'm wrong. From what I can see, none of the above are blameless, but none of the above are irredeemable if given the right support, but the game gives some of them the Conflict Ball, more often than not Edelgard.

I'm also reminded of this Doctor Who scene, and how much better things could have gone, in an ideal world that wouldn't happen under this setting.

,Alright, jeez, fine. Forget I asked.

Genuine thanks for the clarification/point of view.

Well, I guess I'll bounce then. Clearly discussion is closed.

Edited by wanderlustwarrior on Dec 3rd 2020 at 11:22:50 AM

Edelgard on CF is still trying to take over Fodlan. She still started a war. She is motivated by Fantastic Racism and hostility to religion. Her goals, motives, and methods are the same as in any other routes. CF clearly presents Edelgard as sympathetic, and her conquest of Fodlan,killing of Rhea, and destruction of the Co S as good for Fodlan.

To respond more directly, my issue with Edelgard hinges a lot on Good Flaws, Bad Flaws; Edelgard is a character with a lot of "bad" flaws that aren't really addressed as character flaws on her own route, which gives the overall impression that they aren't intended to be seen as all that bad.

And to get back to the Claude and Edelgard thing; I think that would only make sense with some significant re-writes earlier in the story. It's heavily implied throughout part I that Edelgard always saw Claude and Dimitri as her enemies.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:11:51 AM

I mean she did some Black Comedy about going to war against the Kingdom to Dimitri in WC, a joke Dimitri doesnt find tasteful(Because Edelgard is joking about somehing she 100% plans to do)

That scene was creepy as hell. It's blatantly obvious Edelgard didn't mean it as a joke at all. It's like she's just so eager to get the war started that she can't contain herself.

RE: redeeming Edelgard; I could see that as something doable... but it's not what CF does. It just... focuses on how how cute Edelgard is, how nice her ideals sound, and just... presents her Fantastic Racism without criticizing it- hell, the climax of her route seems written to vindicate it. She's... really portrayed as a character who doesn't need to be redeemed, is my impression.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Dec 3rd 2020 at 9:21:36 AM

You know, something I wondered since I finished my Blue Lions run...

Do you think Dimitri had romantic feelings for Edelgard, or was it more of a familial, sibling sort of thing?

For the sake of completeness, I will acknowledge the two aren't exclusive.

For my money, I think it's sibling like in nature.

CF softens Edelgard a bit, but it's almost exlusively outside of the main story, where many of her supports are about learning to accept other points of view and accepting criticism. The main story kinda has her getting less execution-happy, though that's optional, and there's some dialogue with Byleth suggesting that she's rethinking her views on the Children of the Goddess, but it's really vague and not very conclusive.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Dec 4th 2020 at 9:55:20 PM

I prefer interpreting El and Dimitri as siblings, if only because I'm tired of fiction in general making everything about romance like no other types of relationships exist. Being betrayed by someone you consider family would still hurt. Plus it sort of makes more sense in the context of Dimitri's story ("to avenge my family, I have to kill someone who is also my family" = FATAL ERROR, PLEASE REBOOT THE SYSTEM).

Edelgard's issue is that her backstory initially has to be fished out of her supports (to the point getting her C+ is the main requirement for unlocking her route), and the game seems to assume that this level of interest means you probably want to romance her. It's also overall fond of the Love Redeems trope, so...

Anyway, spent another night sorting through the story voiceclips, and they definitely match the internal event order so far, which makes it near-impossible to determine what was done when. (That they're sorted by character first doesn't help, either.)

EDIT: Also, I only just realized that one of Felix's lines during the Blue Lions class intro after the choice ("Having heard of your skills, I'm eager to meet you in battle.") only appears if you talked to him in the monastery before. An interesting detail.

Edited by YnK on Dec 4th 2020 at 2:34:43 AM

Well if this leads to yet another Edelgard discourse, then it's time for a controversial opinion.

Gharnef would make a better leader than any of the war criminals in three houses. Unlike them, he HAS actually completed his education and doesn't need to hide behind identity fraud like Rhea or any of her cronies.

Gharnef HAS successfully ruled over nations for a given number of years, and the human hating, dragon ruling empire actually gave him a top position. So you can't call him racist. He just wants suffering for all people.

Gharnef also is honest at what a horrible person he is. You gotta respect that, most of our war criminals act like they have the moral superiority. A true leader can accept his/her flaws and still motivate people. I mean Gharnef died and he still had followers who revived him. I don't see any of the trio or Rhea getting people to revive them.

Check mate.

Well, reviving people in 3H's universe is more or less stated to be impossible (Sothis is one exception, and even then she never fully comes back), so that last point wouldn't really work anyway and would actively go against some of the game's messages. But yeah, its main plot is explicitly built around people being too stubborn to change their mind about something + an attempt at having no "good/evil" side, so nobody was going to admit to being wrong.

They might not revive her, but according to Byleth/Claude's ending Imperial remnants join up with those who slither in the dark to attack Deidru. And in Claude/Balthus, Claude has to send Balthus into Fodlan frequently to help stop revolts by Imperial loyalists.

Adrestia is apparently loyal to Edelgard long after she dies.

Edited by Shotguner159 on Dec 4th 2020 at 4:27:16 AM

That could easily be explained by how entrenched you believe the Dubstep crew are/Corneli being alive and her known associates disappear with her on VW.

Yeah, that's a thing.

But hey, Gharnef changed his ways, he went from a just man to an Omnicidal Maniac.

True character development there. Do Edelgard and Rhea change their ways in time?

Does Claude?

Dimitri's cool at least in AM.

Besides, technically Byleth revives people with the divine pulse. Time travel but ehh.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Dec 4th 2020 at 8:07:49 AM

Hapi's ending:

Claude/Byleth:

Claude/Balthus:

Imperials are a separate faction to those who slither in Claude/Byleth. If those who slither were supposed to be responsible for the revolts, Claude/Balthus would just say so - like in Hapi's ending.

Edited by Shotguner159 on Dec 4th 2020 at 5:34:24 AM

Where does that happen?

Imperial loyalists: People don't like being conquered by a foreign power? I've never heard of such a thing!

The real problem with Edelgard's route is that we never actually see why her hatred of the Church is enough to overcome her visceral disgust at working with those who slither in the dark.

No! Stop! "She needs them to bring down the Church" is not enough. Her actions are comparable to a Holocaust survivor teaming up with Nazi remnants to fight against communism in the Soviet Union. No matter how much a given Jew, Pole, Romani, or gay person might hate communism, the fact remains they are working with Nazis. This needs more than high-minded philosophical ideas to justify, you also need to explain her emotional journey to making such a decision.

So here's how I'd fix Crimson Flower: Edelgard is not, at first, aware that the Agarthans were responsible for her torment. As far as she knows, it was all the work of Duke Aegir. She is aware that the Agarthans are a bunch of evil Nazi shitheads and she hates them, but since (she believes that) they didn't personally hurt her or her family, working strains credibility less.

In this version, Edelgard's lived experience is being locked up underground by Aegir and his cronies and experimented on out of an obsession with Crests. When her hair turns white, the tormenters were all "Well, our work here is done!" Edelgard comes to the conclusion that their ultimate goal is to implant Ferdinand with the Crest of Flames and proclaim him to be chosen by the Goddess, then place him on the throne as the new emperor. This scenario ties into a few of her goals and ideals.

• She resents the loss of what she perceives to be hers by right, namely imperial power and authority over all of Fódlan.
• It steels her idea that merit should decide everything, because obviously there's no way Ferdinand could be a better emperor than her.
• It reinforces her idea that Crests are the problem, because what, Ferdinand will get to rule just because he has two Crests?
• It reinforces the idea that the Church needs to go, because their goddess will be used to justify giving the throne to somebody who doesn't deserve it.

(She will have developed these ideas before being imprisoned; the torture makes her more convinced that she is correct).

Edelgard confesses her worries to Ionius and "Arundel"; later that day, "Arundel" approaches her in private and tells her he knows some people who have similar ideas...

White Clouds can proceed more or less as normal, except that the Flame Emperor speaks to Thales rather than Arundel; she also mentions gruesome deeds in Duscur but not in Enbarr.

In Part 2, we delve more into Edelgard's backstory and how she came to hold her ideals; this is where we find out more about the bullet points above. As the story progresses, information gradually comes to light that Thales and friends were responsible for Edelgard's torment, and she might even have an anti{heroic BSOD}} upon learning that the very shitheads she thought were her allies had secretly turned her into a weapon for their own purposes. But by this point, she's come so far - can she really back down when Rhea is almost defeated?

The answer is "No". Ultimately, she bites down on her rage, steels herself, and marches on to bring down Rhea. No matter what, she is still convinced that her way is the best way for Fódlan, even if it means she has to work with those who inflicted such horrors on herself personally.

I'm sure there are other ways to improve it, but this actually lets us go on Edelgard's emotional journey alongside her rather than just saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend For The Greater Good."

Edited by VampireBuddha on Dec 4th 2020 at 3:21:51 PM