Fire Emblem Three Houses (Spoiler Thread)

Less than Edelgard, sure. But he still hates them. And that means that 2/3 of Fodlan's future heads of state actively hate the Church of Seiros. The reasoning from the fandom often seems to be "The Church of Seiros is like the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church had absolute power over Medieval Europe, ergo the Church of Seiros must have absolute power over Fodlan", even though the actual text of the game shows their influence to be pretty meager.

Edited by MisterTambourineMan on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:11:36 AM

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Well the game does flip flop if it's true to medieval history or it's doing it's own thing.

Mind you, we never get to see Rhea do her job, nor deny the accusations that she controls Fodlan, and even refers herself as leading Fodlan. And the majority of of claims that the Church is super powerful is from Jeralt.

So one wonders if it's a fault of writing or an attempt at ambiguity.

The nobles do initially side with the Church or at least against the Empire on CF since Edelgard's system would destroy their way of life, and only turn when the Empire is winning.

So yes nobles are opportunistic but the Church is their primary tool, and that is why it's one of the steps to changing Fodlan for Edelgard.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:28:29 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

I'm pretty sure being "true to medieval history" was never their intention. It's pretty obvious to me that they used a lot of inspiration from actual history, but also changed some stuff and added their own things in order to create their setting.

I'd honestly be baffled if anyone actually thought it was trying to be "true to medieval history."

It reminds me of a discussion a while back where someone was justifying Rhea executing people by saying it was common back then.

The problem with that is that are multiple things that contradict social norms back then, like Rhea being a female pope who is bisexual, Claude not getting violently lynched, Edelgard having a position of power, ETC.

Even in Fates, Corrin is actually adverse to dating his Hoshidan sisters till he gets the not incest letter.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:57:57 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

It is very possible for people to pick and choose what parts of history or the real world they want to incorporate into their fantasy setting. There's no rule saying they have to either go all-in with historical accuracy or completely make up something new.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jun 30th 2020 at 4:14:51 AM

Yeah that's fair.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

There's a pretty big social pressure to conform to what the church teaches. Lorenz has to fake devoutness in order to fit in. Claude is actively afraid of saying "heretical" things where people can hear him. This turns out to be completely justified as shown in Shamir and Catherine's support where the former says she "doesn't see the big deal" abot Rhea and the faith and the latter responds that she would have killed Shamir if it wasn't for their friendship.

Again, thank you.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Catherines pretty clear especially with what is said afterwards that Shamir's life being saved by Rhea and not being loyal to her is why she wouldnt think of killing someone who says that. We even know from Catherines past thats why she's loyal in the first place.

And not only is Cyril not devoted, we know Rhea doesn't mind that he doesn't practice the faith either. And Seteths whole support with him is trying to instill in him Rhea doesnt want his life to revolve around her either.

This is where the real problem lies. Peoples social actions to saying such heretical things is more likely to get you killed, even when Lorenz realizes his father isnt as devout as he believed he was either. People abusing faith to persecute other people, just as the Tragedy was done to deflect blame to the people of Duscur. And when the thing they use to abuse power is ko longer convenient, they use something else instead.

Lorenz even points it out again

Lorenz: It gives me the impression that faith is little more than a tool they use to maintain their positions of power.

So long as its a convenient tool, they will bend the faith however they want, and when it is no longer useful, discard it for something else to gain power from.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 30th 2020 at 5:27:40 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

That's politics in a nut shell (and also why I measured the Church's power in political clout).

FE: New Mystery Fresh Cart Lunatic 7PM PT Sun, Mon, Fri; Expert Unicorn Overlord 7PM PT Wed, Thurs: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi

Cyril generally keeps quiet about his beliefs and is still loyally working for the church. The only nonbelievers who are allowed to live freely in Fodlan seem to be those directly working for the archbishop (Cyril and Shamir) and those under the protection of a royal (Dedue and Petra). Abyss has a woman features a woman who's been shunned from society due to her heretical religious beliefs.

Female rulers were a semi-regular occurence throughout Medieval Europe, and were notably more common than in other parts of the world at the time (a consequence of Europe practicing strict monogamy, meaning that a direct male heir wasn't always available). Notable examples include Empress Irene of Byzantium, Mathilda of Tuscany., Eleanor of Aquitaine, Tamar the Great of Georgia, Saint Jadwiga of Poland, and Queen Margaret of Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:40:59 PM

Interesting, thanks.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Lorenz is faking it? I just took it as part of his noble duties.

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.

Yes, the Church has such power and influence that half the continent immediately joins a war to destroy it. And half the Alliance wants to join them. And the other half is lead by Claude, who also hates the Church. And no, he isn't secretive about he; he starts slagging off about the Church whenever he can. Him making a snide remark about how they'd kill him for it is like Felix making a snide remark about Seteth murdering people for criticizing chivalry; it's a snide remark from a snide person.

Really, the game's pretty heavy-handed on "Religion (at least ones that look like Catholicism) are bad stupid, and wrong, Atheism is good and righteous and just". That's why Claude is the hero for trying to save Leonie from the evils of her religious beliefs.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

Just because they are snide people doesn't make them incorrect, plus we have Catherine to show how they react to disrespectful people and she's a paragon of the knights.

Like Alois notes in his supports with Hanneman the other knights look down on him for not having a crest, among other things.

There is also the argument that because Edelgard was able to strike such a decisive blow to the Church in chapter 12 that it made the other nations quicker to defect, there is a reason why Edelgard attacked the Monastery first.

Recall that when Rhea is actively supporting the war effort, that the Empire has far less support. Coincidence? I think not. The Alliance was actively supporting the Kingdom in secret according to the Abyss dialogue.

As for Claude, Leonie actually agrees that if their talk was public, people would view it as heresy. Though Claude doesn't really save Leonie from the "Evils of religion" (TM).

But let's also recall the Kingdom and Dimitri are the most heroic faction as treated by the narrative and they aren't portrayed as stupid for following religion. Mercedes is the most devout member and she's portrayed positively. As well as Flayn but that's like a super weird case.

I'd say Three Houses treats religion much better than say the work of Warren Ellis.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 30th 2020 at 7:10:58 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

The woman worshipping down below has more to it than just that. She's a foreigner who was captured and escaped, and she admits she's heard a voice come from the statue she uses as a replacement for her gods. One that sounds dark and cold.

The fact the statue has malevolent implications has lead them to believe shes worshipping evil gods.

And instead of executing her they're saying she can't stay in Abyss, which while not the best, she isn't being killed for her beliefs.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jun 30th 2020 at 7:14:07 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Now see that's a hook that i'm interested in, perhaps it's a god displaced by Sothis worship?

I'll say this, the handling of the Abyss is actually one of Rhea's better moments.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jun 30th 2020 at 7:20:21 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

I will say this, Red: if on CF they want many of us to believe that the Empire is NOT singularly powerful enough to steamroll (or at least steadily take out) the rest of the powers of Fodlan, then they probably shouldn’t have made it look like that the moment Byleth wakes up; beyond the regular accusations of glorifying the Author Avatar, it makes the Church-Kingdom suffer from a massive case of Informed Ability on top of Edelgard’s leadership and capability looking mediocre.

That’s why I, and many others don’t like the clean sweep of CF and feel the Empire should have struggled more before being able to finally take Fhirdiad. I’ve said before that Randolph and Ladislava reach Mauve Shirt status at best and I stand by that, but even if they were Guest-Star Party Member-playable I’d criticise their deaths as a lazy, ineffective way to make the enemy look dangerous (besides that said force is crushed next battle, including Alois and Shamir if not recruited)... It’s similar to “Fates”, where REV killing off Izana and (especially) Scarlet felt cheap and contrived; I was more convinced by the Vallite army razing Cyrkensia, because that felt like TANGIBLE PUSH BACK.

In Layman's Terms, it’s for the same reason The Worf Effect in action doesn’t always work as a trope - instead of making the enemy look impressive because they can beat the strongest character(s), the “Worf” in question just looks incompetent because they keep getting beaten up. In this case, the Worf in question is the Church-Kingdom army, so... tell me again how they kept the Empire at a stalemate for five years?

A while ago, when Red was coming up with ideas to rework the routes, I suggested that Edelgard have to deal with pro-Church uprisings in the Empire. I now think the devs should have used at least one such uprising to extend Crimson Flower. As it stands, Edelgard keeps telling us that the Church is all-powerful, yet people act contrary to Church teachings on a whim (which, to be fair, has plenty of historical precedent). If there had been some sort of anti-Edelgard uprising within the Empire, that would have sold the idea that the Church has genuine power and influence. If the rebels were mostly commoners, it could also have led to some interesting introspection on Edelgard's part. "Why are these people fighting against me? Don't they realise I'm fighting to improve their lives?"

It also doesn't make narrative sense that Cornelia fights for the Kingdom in Crimson Flower.

Ukrainian Red Cross

Ehh, I dunno about Faerghus not being portrayed as stupid, since CF finale has Rhea set their capital on fire, and they still think you're worse than her.

Say what you want about El turning into a monstrosity at the end of AM, but by that point she only has generic mooks to support her. On CF, you have Annette promising to save Fhirdiad, which is on fire, and for some reason nobody gives a crap about Rhea causing this, or the fact that she is currently an enraged dragon.

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

Its made very clear that the fact that Edelgard invaded their country isnwhy this is all happening. Rhea didnt go insane by herself, but was pushed into it more and more.

No country is going to welcome the invaders that have been invading for unjustified reasons for five yesrs, killed their king, and lead their allies to set everything ablaze in one desperate chance of stopping the enemy.

Heck Sylvain when recruited makes very clear he thinks the invasion of Faerghus is unjustified in his eyes if you pick the right choices. The man who hates Crests the most thinks Edelgard isnt in the right.

Not to mention dying to the last is a Fodlan mindset in general, and Edelgard is even noted to be allowing all sorts of terrible things to happen to her citizens under her allies even in her own country, yet still has a fanatical military.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 1st 2020 at 1:31:11 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

See, that's kind of the issue I have with CF; if you haven't played other routes (where El is shown to be just as stubborn and dedicated to her beliefs, and has her own fanatics), it can be a bit... biased.

Heck, she makes a comment somewhere in the Alliance chapters about how she is willing to let her enemies surrender peacefully but they just insist on fighting back and getting themselves killed. Kinda wish Byleth retained memories from other routes so they could tell her how she went down on all routes besides hers.

Oh, yeah, and again, the whole "at least Edelgard didn't set her own city on fire" thing.

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

And then shell demand Judith be killed so she can travel over Daphnel territory easier.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Yeah, Edie has a pretty severe case of Moral Myopia - while she naturally would expect Adrestia to fight back were IT the target of other powers, she wonders why everyone else would fight HER when she is the one invading. It’s almost like she can’t conceive that these other nations have a sense of national identity separate from Adrestia... but THAT would be silly, right?!

Just one thing, whoever said anything about Fhirdiad on CF being portrayed as stupid or not, because it sure wasn’t me. While I do think their choosing to fight to the death rather than evacuate the burning city is in-character for Faerghus in general, it’s still pretty boneheaded - just like the Punishment of Duscur was, actually. Points to Edelgard though, I actually agreed with her 100% only then, when she decided killing the insane dragon was the best way to go forward at that point - if that isn’t being Damned by Faint Praise, I don’t know what is.

Edited by CaellachTigerEye on Jul 1st 2020 at 7:31:08 PM

No, but she also refused to evacuate the citizens of her capital city, possibly to be used as human shields.