Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (spoilers obviously)

Mace runs right into a fairly obvious trap, and this fact is the lynchpin for Palpatine's big play. I wouldn't be surprised if the invasion of Kashyyyk was done specifically to get Yoda off-planet so he wouldn't be there to moderate Mace's "run in and stab him" solution.

I don't know how Mace acted towards Unbelievably Earnest Baby Anakin but being a bit of a dick to Teen Anakin is perfectly reasonable. Guy is an entitled asshole because everybody has been telling him he's the Chosen One this whole time. Maybe he needed more Maces telling him he ain't shit and not less.

But don't be a jerk to a baby, Mace. They're so impressionable.

Look, he went there to try to arrest him and he doesn't get extreme until Palpatine kills several people. Anakin probably tripped over the bodies on the way there.

Edited by Bocaj on Jan 19th 2020 at 1:41:37 PM

I remember in the old kid books that featured Anakin and Obi-Wan's adventures something that would occasionally come up was that Anakin felt he was forced on Obi-Wan as his apprentice rather than chosen and that would sometimes weigh on him.

Meanwhile Obi-Wan was always happy to have Anakin around. The only thing that bothered him wasn't Anakin directly, but that Anakin's eagerness and appreciation sometimes made him feel guilty that he didn't show the same appreciation towards Qui-Gon when he had the chance.

Wait, if in the old EU their relationship was pretty decent, where does the "Obi-Wan was unprepared to be a master and so was emotionally distant and cold to Anakin" idea come from? I always assumed it was just something people picked up from an old EU source.

Is it just a popular headcanon?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 19th 2020 at 11:00:06 AM

In ROTJ Obi-Wan blamed his failure as a teacher on Anakin's fall, which is echoed in ROTS. AOTC showed them as usually friendly with each other but Anakin's rebelliousness against him and the order in general mirrored that of a parent/child relationship, with Obi-Wan forced to be disciplinary. In ROTS they seemed more like siblings on equal footing. With Qui-Gon's death the dynamic was always more like a sibling stepping up to be a parent.

Qui-Gon was the father that Anakin was always meant to have, with Obi-Wan being an elder brother to him. Ironic, if you think about it. Maul killing Qui-Gon seems to be an minor act but in reality, is one of the greatest consequences that can be felt throughout the Saga.

Yeah, but both of those were vague. The fans tend to claim the problem was something very specific, which is where the confusion comes from - since that doesn't seem to actually have a source.

It's not really that vague for me. Obi-Wan's stern attitude towards Anakin in AOTC is not exactly a healthy one, with signs of resentment from Anakin to Obi-Wan in his private moments. And it's quite clear that Obi-Wan has be a model Jedi Knight, perhaps too much of a model Jedi. It was implied that he knew that Anakin married Padmé but didn't tell Anakin or the Jedi Order about it out of respect. That was a mistake on Obi-Wan's part. Had he told Anakin that he knew about his secret marriage with Padmé but didn't rat him out because he truly cares about his Padawan, Anakin might have not been so cagey and thus turn to Palpatine for advice.

There's still a pretty large logical leap from that to a very specific "Obi-Wan was an emotionally distant mentor who couldn't adequately raise Anakin."

It could make sense as an explanation, but it's still not really there. And even then, it's got holes: Obi-Wan knowing about him and Padme being a choice that comes out of love, for instance, and which becomes obvious in a movie that shows Anakin and Obi-Wan being rather affectionate (or at least close).

Anakin's resentment of Obi-Wan in AOTC, also, is difficult to parse through because he's resentful of everybody except Padme, whom he's instead possessive towards, and Palpatine who tells him what he wants to hear. A lot of what Anakin says about other people (and himself) in AOTC is meant to be taken with a grain of salt. Hell, Anakin accuses Obi-Wan of being jealous of him.

That's why I always assumed there was like a source material where people were getting that idea about Anakin's upbringing from: it's so specific, and isn't much reflected in the films.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:32:07 PM

It's pretty clear that Obi-Wan was probably his healthiest relationship period, as his secret marriage to Padme was a constant source of stress. He had a genuine respect for a few Jedi like Yoda and even a begrudging respect for Mace, but TCW showed him getting along a little too well with some proto-Imperial officers like Tarkin.

Scratch all that, his best relationship was with R2.

Thinking more about it, I'm starting to think that maybe people got that idea about him and Obi-Wan from the Tartakovsky Clone Wars cartoon.

That would make the most sense: that series based it's characterization of Anakin and Obi-Wan solely on AOTC, but did so in a way that rather exaggerated them - so Obi-Wan is written as cold and unfeeling, Anakin is written as hostile and egocentric, and they at times seem like they can barely get through a conversation with one another.

Then Revenge of the Sith comes along and Lucas - probably realizing he portrayed Anakin like an asshat last time - dialed the hostility back and gave them a very close banter and casual devotion to one another, adding another thing that made the Tartakovsky series feel dissonant.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:28:42 PM

I suspect that if Phantom Menace didn't exist, people would naturally slot Attack of the Clones into this slot.

Part of it is also purely Death-Eatering of Obi-Wan, for instance a lot of Anakin fans take Obi-Wan's "good job" jibe on Geonosis as being incredibly rude and ungrateful rather than just a bit snarky (and let's face it, actually pretty justified in the circumstances.)

I suspect it’s more the idea of Qui Gon than the reality

As long as he’s dead he can always have been the perfect teacher and Anakin can resent Obi Wan for not living up to that father figure that briefly swanned into his life.

And Obi Wan will always have a massive inferiority complex

But stuff outside of 2d Clone Wars s1 and AOTC still portray the relationship as warm because whoops we’re trying to wring the maximum emotional impact out of their coming to blows so EU gotta carry the weight

And overall Obi Wan probably did a decent job. It’s just that the deck was so massively stacked against Anakin that decent didn’t suffice and probably nothing but flawless would have and I don’t know if any Jedi, even Qui Gon, could have done a flawless job

Edited by Bocaj on Jan 20th 2020 at 9:22:36 AM

It also doesn't help that there's a Sith Lord that took on the role of a grandfatherly figure to Anakin at the time who fed him stuff ilke "you will be the greatest of all Jedi", pandering to his ego and further isolating him from the Jedi Order.

Sidious actively took on the father figure role that Anakin desperately needed.

For a boy who grew up literally without a father, it was easy to get him to look up to him.

Edited by slimcoder on Jan 20th 2020 at 6:34:08 AM

This is why the Jedi take ‘em young

So they imprint on Yoda like ducks

That and it's a hell of a lot easier to get them used to the idea of not getting too attached to other people before they actually get attached to other people.

Yeah, him refusing to grant Anakin the rank of Jedi Master is perfectly justified, since it's on Palpatine's recommendation that he do so and be on the Council for no other reason than to be Palpatine's eyes and ears. Anakin is just too blind to see that he hasn't really done anything worth being promoted to Master and also doesn't have the personality for it, his reaction to being refused it being example number 1.

Obi being death-eatered by the fandom is too cold and harsh towards Anakin was basically the precursor to the fandom blaming everything Kylo did on Luke. You can practically hear Obi-Wan chuckling, "Now you know what I had to put up with" in the afterlife.

In the old EU, Mace Windu's earliest memories really is of Yoda.

Luke and the Jedi general get deatheatered alot cause people really want the Dark side to be valid form of living and not a cut in dry

This is proper Force application, thi is improper force application

Its like Goku and Vegeta

Goku fucks up with his son one time and immediately realizes he did wrong, He's a shit father FOREVER

Vegeta spends 80% of his time abusing and not caring about his... but the moment he shows he does care, Clearly he is the better father all along.

People make weird leaps of logic to justify why they like Characters who are Awful people over Flawed but well meaning.ones.

Yeah, for all the Jedi's MANY flaws, they do genuinely care and want to help better the galaxy.

Unlike the Sith who just want UNLIMITED POWER!!!!!! Then Rebels shows Palpatine and the Empire do a shit job of governing the galaxy.

Certain elements just reduce the Jedi's virtues and harp on their flaws then reduce them to Sith who use Blue/green/purple lightsabers.

But to be honest, the Prequel Jedi are kinda terrible, that's why i preferred Luke's new Jedi Order in general. Too bad Disney fucked it up. I have no faith Rey can make anything better aside from Disney plot armor.

It's strange how certain writers love to point out how flawed the Jedi are, and make excuses for the Sith despite them being even worse.

Gotta be the cookies.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jan 20th 2020 at 7:55:07 AM

The PT Jedi are horrendously flawed but you can't tell if thats Lucas being Lucas or Lucas being intentionally

cause then TCW pretty much makes the Jedi... well Normal fucking people, They clearly care about others.

When the Jedi talk about Attachments its like... the Closed Fist and an Open Palm

Closed Fist held too tightly will crush the thing it wants to protect

but an Open Palm, mave very well lose what it is grasp but can always receives more then what it lost.

Which is What I think Lucas was going for when Yoda tries to comfort Anakin about Padme's approaching death.

and then there is the Mess BW did and They fucking refuse to own up to it

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Jan 20th 2020 at 10:12:16 AM

BW?