Politics in Media - The Good, the Bad, and the Preachy

Since there still seems to be some confusion:

You're asking if it's morally acceptable to make stuff like slavery appealing to readers?

And not even the sugarcoated kind. Just, straight up slavery.

Edited by M84 on Jan 18th 2019 at 5:57:17 PM

The only slavery I find appealing is when it's done by vampires.

They have the right to dominate us and control us as pets.

:)

It's less a "right" and more a "who is going to stop us?" situation.

Being a nice slaver is a lot like being a nice murderer. "Quick and painless" may be preferable to the most obvious alternatives, but your victims are still dead.

It should be noted THE DEVIL AND TOM WALKER, published in 1822 had it noted that the ultimate evil trade any man could participate in was slave trader and anyone who did was damned forever.

Banker was second worst.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:19:48 AM

Funny this conversation popped up, because I have been wondering from a purely world-building standpoint on how to make an 'ethical' or 'justified' slavery system, but the closest I've ever gotten is a system that's more like serfdom or voluntary indentured servitude - a way out / route up for homeless or unemployed people for example - complete with personal and worker's rights and early 'get out' clauses and options. But then it's like, you might as well call it employment if you add in enough 'ethical' elements.

Which is kind of messed up, considering how often "evil banker" is a dogwhistle for antisemitism.

Edited by M84 on Jan 18th 2019 at 6:24:01 PM

Yes. I guess sugarcoating would be optional, but kind of irrelevant. From the Property of Love trope page:

I'm sorry for bringing up BDSM stuff again, but it is kind of one of the most obvious examples.

True. And yet, even literal murder simulators that portray clearly unjustified killing as fun and exciting are often considered a lot less controversial. Kind of an interesting contrast there, imo.

In the story, it was outright usurer but it was a completely Protestant Christian colony and the protagonist (who agrees to become one) was one as well. So it seems loans with hefty interest was what was being attacked.

Particularly when it describes the many lives he ruins by overcharged interest.

Which I suppose means sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 2:50:22 AM

Because killings in video games are often so far removed from reality that people barely make the mental connection. They are quick, clean and forgotten, as opposed to the rather grisly reality. As soon as a video game does get into "too real" territory, like in the cases of Manhunt and Hatred, there generally is a big outrage.

Heck, I remember a thing in GTA 5, where there was this big torture scene, and people being somewhat "dude, not cool", even though said torture was portrayed as both horrific and entirely useless.

Games that want to revel in glorious bloody violence usually find you non-human opponents to mangle.

Edited by Kayeka on Jan 18th 2019 at 12:18:45 PM

Hell, it's actually an issue with UNCHARTED and it's used-to-be-Tomb Raider but is now more or less Uncharted with the Tomb Raider license TOMB RAIDER. There's been manly complaints about the fact Nathan Drake and Lara Croft have killed the populations of states for questionable reasons.

You can justify that in Halo where it's a genocidal war.

Less so when you're looking for Spanish gold or the Unholy Grail.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 3:12:30 AM

Of what, abusive relationships? Is it?

Like TV's Dexter. Of course, with him, the victims are also people who didn't get what was coming to them until they got chopped up and deposited at the bottom of the sea. Is the "he has the uncontrollable urge to kill, so he might as well kill only bad people" thing just a contrived way to have 'heroic' serial killer character, or is it just me?

Honestly, Dexter's biggest problem was the fact it was increasingly clear the new showrunner was not in step with the audience. He wanted to show Dexter as a monster and that he couldn't be more.

The audience just wanted their revenge porn combined with empathy for a broken individual.

Well there's not really any story to tell if he's just a "normal" serial killer. The story is about Dexter being "different" mentally in a Hollywood Psych way in that he can't feel normal emotions (he's also Hollywood schizophrenic) but he's attempting to honor his father by not killing innocents and is gradually developing real human connections to his cover identity family.

He also is developing genuine real disgust and rage at the people he kills. A typical story that "works" is Dexter experiments with religion or Narcotics Anonymous to deal with his addiction to killing.

This gets thrown out in later seasons and thus all interesting elements of Dexter's character.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 3:23:41 AM

Of fictional depictions of abuse that are meant to be appealing. I don't mean to imply that real life consensual BDSM relationships are abusive, if that's what you're getting at.

Ah, you're essentially saying that there's a strong correlation in fiction between abusive relationships portrayed as good and BDSM relationships.

It's funny that you started this by asking about slavery and now are trying to make it seem like you were talking about BDSM instead.

So let's go back to slavery.

In what situation would it be "morally acceptable" to write a slavery story in which slavery is depicted in all its degrading dehumanizing horror for the purpose of pandering to people who want to enslave others?

Edited by M84 on Jan 18th 2019 at 7:35:05 PM

None? What easy questions you pose.

Exactly. I really don't get why this is a difficult concept to grasp.

Actually, that's an argument for porn and prisoners in real life. If people with dark urges can get their rocks off on fictionalized awfulness and it makes them less likely to do it in RL.

Then the answer would be, "always?"

There's been plenty of arguments bloodlust and sexual frustration benefit strongly from fictional outlets.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jan 18th 2019 at 3:47:44 AM

The more interesting question is whether you can create a fictional slavery system which drastically reduces or minimises the ethical problems with slavery - or at least to the point where the slave-owners don't become automatic absolute monsters, especially if they were simply born and raised into an existing system that they can do little to change. But that's again the experimental world-builder in me talking.

Sure, but slavery is neither. It's about power. And I think with some things, indulging in fictional versions can actually reinforce those desires and cement them. I think I remember some study saying that you get angrier quicker the more times you get angry - if you manage to calm yourself down instead you get much better at staying calm. I don't know what the research is on power trips though.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 18th 2019 at 11:52:41 AM

There's also an argument that too much of it going mainstream can cause problems.

Porn isn't mainstream.

Are you advocating for more media that panders to slavery and people who wish they could own slaves?

Edited by M84 on Jan 18th 2019 at 7:52:58 PM

I think that's coming dangerously close to a strawman, really.

But yeah, indulging such urges, even only through fiction, generally makes the urge stronger. Like "fixing" a leaky roof by strategic placement of a bucket. Sure, you prevented the floor from getting wet for now, but the roof is still leaking and will only rot further.

And there's also the normalising effect such fiction can have on society as a whole. Honestly, it's kinda why this is a conversation at all.

My belief is someone's fictional life is very often different from their real life.

I was just pointing out the two can interact in strange ways.

Or maybe just, you know, people who enjoy fictional depictions of slavery. Perhaps because they have a fetish for such things. Hence the references to slavery-themed BDSM porn as an example.