Super Smash Bros Ultimate (SPOILER Thread)

To be fair, there are already multiple links so it wouldn't hurt having another one.

Mario, Link and Samus are the only ones who have another playable character that are supposed to be the same person

The three Links are different characters in their home series. Regular Link is from Breath of the Wild, Young Link is from Ocarina of Time, and Toon Link is from The Wind Waker.

The same goes for Zelda/Sheik, as Sheik is from Ocarina of Time and Zelda is from either A Link to the Past or A Link Between Worlds depending on which source you check.

I mean, the main trio were Oo T and TP incarnations in previous games, and the most radical moveset changes they've had since then was Zelda getting a new Down-B to facilitate the lack of transformations in Sm4sh.

So I think in the specific context of Smash, Zelda, Ganondorf, and the "main" Link are all the same person regardless of game.

Edit: oh, and the All-Star Mode of Smash 3DS/Wii U uses the OG appearances of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf for when they first appeared, despite them all being different incarnations than the original Lo Z (and Oo T for Ganondorf's case)

Edited by Numbuh1234 on Nov 16th 2018 at 8:18:06 AM

Clearly, the character we need is the "It's a secret to everybody" Moblin from the original game.

I'm a big fan of Hyrule Warriors, so I in general would love to see elements of it appear outside of it. I'll grant that several of the fights in Breath of the Wild felt like they took cues from that (particularly the Blight Ganon fights, reminding me a lot of the giant boss monsters from HW), but I want more. And yes, that means I want Linkle in Smash. I enjoyed her a lot.

Going back to Neku, I'd probably want to use his level 3 Shiki fusion attack as a Final Smash for three reasons. One, the other fusion attacks would be spoilers (although yes, Nintendo obviously isn't afraid of those - hi, Shulk's Final Smash with Fiora! - so that's more of a personal preference). Two, Beat's isn't as flashy and memorable. Three, Joshua's is just too absurdly powerful. Shiki's level 3 is flashy, memorable (giant Mr. Mew!), and keeps spoilers to a minimum. It'd be fun.

I'm keen to headcanon that Sheik is OOT Zelda in SSB 4 and TP Zelda in Ultimate, but there's no real way of telling since she uses an original design both times.

Wasn't SSB 4 Link a Composite Character of TP and SS Link, or is that only used in advertisements?

I still can't believe we have to consider Young Link & Toon Link as 2 different characters now. I never thought they were 2 different character & I think it's so dumb that we have to now. I can't believe that Hyrule Warriors did a better job when it came to Zelda reps' moveset. Granted it's a game dedicated to the Zelda franchise but still

They have literally always been two different characters.

Both FE and Zelda share the same issue: lackluster usage of representation. FE thinks 80% of their characters are Marth and Zelda can't move past the Triforce trio.

Toon and Young Link would be fine if their movesets used the items unique to their games. Hell, you could probably make a full moveset based on A Ltt P alone.

And there is this weird inconsistency with playable one-shots, where its acceptable for FE but not Zelda.

Why wouldn't they be two characters? One is the Hero of Time and the other is the Hero of Wind.

&

And yet I've never seen anyone say "Twilight Princess Link replace Ocarina of Time Link". That's the logic I'm going with here. Hell, I still haven't seen anyone say "Breath of the Wild Link replace Twilight Princess Link"

People mention that all the time. The discription of Link on the Smash Bros character page even says he goes from Ocarina Link to Twilight Link to Wild Link.

Edited by HarpieSiren on Nov 17th 2018 at 9:28:09 AM

Hold up, there's character descriptions on the web page? How did I miss this?

The point I'm trying to get across is that Link still has his number 3. As far I'm concern that's like saying Brawl Falco replace Melee Falco. Even though Project M felt that way so maybe that's not the best argument

Our character page. I'm saying that people do talk about how he's three different Links, but it's a footnote anyway, since it only really comes with slight changes to abilities if it wouldn't make sense for the current Link being drawn from.

Toon Link and Young Link have no real similarity beyond a slightly similar role in Smash(a younger version of Link that is a clone of Link's moveset), and that even got changed in Ultimate.

They were always different characters.

It's Young Link and Link(in Melee) who were the same people, and as close to "same character" otherwise as you could get.

There's a huge difference between a role and the actual character(or person).

I get the argument that they feel redundant due to their role. But they were never remotely the same character anyway. Now, Young Link being replaced by Toon Link does feel like it was intended, but we have no real way to prove that specifically. At best, due to looking into the coding, Source Gaming found that Toon Link has a few of Young Link's voice clips... but again, same role. As noted on the Brawl website. It's why Toon Link has the same special moves as Link during Brawl and 4. He was intended to be a type of clone from the start. It was an "obligation" to have those moves.

Anyway, Young Link having Triforce Slash kind of sucks when there are more unique options, but he was always more OOT-based, not MM-based, so the lack of Fierce Deity Link is unsurprising. Besides that, he's meant to use Link's older moveset(as he got updated heavily), not unlike Dr. Mario using Mario's Melee/64 moveset. I like that. It gives us the best of both worlds. Albeit, they're still both different from actually playing the specific character, but it's still nice.

It's a nice touch that Young Link's intro is the one from Smash 64's Link even.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something but I'm not exactly seeing difference other than semantic animation & properties. Yes they have different throw animation, DAIR properties, arrows, & presumably the spin attack (IDK if Y!Link can charge his). That just not enough for me to consider Y!Link being a different character altogether. It's not helping either that Y!Link's moveset doesn't put that much emphasis on either OOT & MM. He doesn't have Oni Link as his Final Smash.

My other point I'm trying to get at here is that I don't like the idea of the Zelda series being only rep by the Tri-Force trio. Prior to BOTW (something I still need to desperately play) the only characters I can think of that could be playable were Ghirahim & Midna. I mean I guess there Zant but I wouldn't want him over those 2. Not that I would be complaining about the idea of having Zant getting if that just meant having more Zelda rep. Well maybe except for Tingle

If I'm going to be frank how I overall feel about Y!Link is pretty mix. It's because Y!Link inclusion is how I feel about Paper Mario. I've been pretty adamant against Paper Mario's inclusion because he's an alt for Mario. Yea I know about the whole he has diverse moveset but that doesn't change the fact he's still Mario & if they're going to rep a Mario RPG it might as well be Mario RPG character not another version of Mario. Which in turn is how I feel about Y!Link

On the other hand this is the Link that got me into the Zelda franchise. When I saw him again in Hyrule Warriors I was beyond happy & when I saw him returning for Ultimate I got ecstatic. But all these feelings have for him is unfortunately nostalgic bias reasons. I can't for the life of me argue for his case.

He's not Mario, he can't even jump good.

Young Link is the only character I'm confident got explicitly replaced.

Did you not see the way the boy jump in Majora's Mask?

Majora's Mask? That's not Paper Mario.

x5: While I doubt he'd be significant enough to warrant inclusion as DLC, there is Vaati, the main antagonist from the Four Swords games and Minish Cap. As a sorcerer with wind-based magic, I reckon he'd be a decent pick for a pure spellcaster-type fighter.

Edited by TheHeroHartmut on Nov 18th 2018 at 11:18:52 AM

Toon Link is a Young Link, and I still believe he should have kept the name.

It'd also be a neat decloning, going from Ocarina Link at 2 different ages to 2 different Links, one young and one adult.

Paper Mario can't jump well? That can't be right

Aw man, I keep forgetting about him. Vaati wasn't that highly requested but he was notably requested. I really need to play BOTW to see if the Champions live to their hype.

Unless I'm reading that wrong that's more or less how I feel about Link.

They're literally different people and different characters.

Young Link is specifically the lad from OOT. Toon Link is specifically the lad from WW. They aren't even related as family. It's just a guy taking a similar name because somebody chose him to try and help save the world. Young Link is actually the destined one to fight Ganon.

They have zero relations beyond being children.

Yes, they played the same role in Smash, being a child Link. That was intentional. Sakurai wanted to keep that role, but gave it to a new character with similarities.

That happens. Meanwhile the adult Link has multiple different designs and is always meant to be the same character. While Young Link was clearly replaced by Toon Link in Brawl, they did not have the same moveset either. They play very differently, with Young Link just literally being regular Link's moveset with less range/power while Toon Link has his own set of moves with only a smaller set shared between him and the Brawl/4 Adult Link. Young Link was a clone. Toon Link was also a semi-clone.

And this is just for the Smash bits, where Young Link and Toon Link have small similarities. In the actual Zelda games, they're severely different. For one thing, Young Link never was able to use the Master Sword. He also is possibly meant to represented the older top-down games where the gameplay was simpler. Toon Link is a representation of the toon style as well as being his own person. He actually appears in other games like Four Swords. But also has unique abilities that Young Link has never used either.

They just aren't that similar beyond a role at best. If Toon Link was solely meant to be a replacement instead of his own character, then we wouldn't have both in Ultimate. For that matter, he'd still have been referred to as basically being the new Young Link, despite the fact Sakurai has never once said Toon Link outright replaced him(that's an assumption). Nor has he implied they're the same overall character in Smash. In fact, all he said is that it was tradition for Link's "clones" to have the same special moves. Something he removed as of Ultimate too. But then again, now that Young Link took regular Link's moveset(which is why regular Link now has a new Final Smash, and other changes), the tradition is kind of the same. Toon Link and Young Link have the same specials instead(that includes Final Smash, being it is a B move by all control settings). Link didn't change enough to change any specials besides... the Final Smash, though, so the tradition is still mostly kept anyway.

What you say isn't without it's merit but I just can't see it that way.

I'm not going to pretend I know everything about Zelda's lore but yea I know this. It's why WW Link is one of my favorite Links.

This is something I think Sakurai should more often when it comes to character. Specifically the Ganondorf debacle.

Why apply that logic to the likes of Young Link & Toon Link & not Falco? His transition from Melee to Brawl is very drastic even more so than the likes of Toon Link & Young Link.

Once again, yes, I'm very much aware of this. Although, by this logic LTTP! & Spirit Track Link are also viable choices? Does that make the good candidate because I can most certainly tell you those Links have enough differentiate from each other as well. Just not as detail since I've didn't touch Spirit Track.

I can admit that I very much assume that was the case since nothing really imply otherwise.

Actually Link's moveset are very different from Brawl/Smash 4. Not different as day & night but radically enough to be consider different. Bomb is now remotely activated, different Final Smash as you mention earlier, Boomerang once again having damage property when it comes back to him, forward smash is a sword beam when he's 0%, & different animation altogether because he's right handed now.