Oh, boy. Oh geez. Brushing off my old forum skills for this... I mean, what can I say? The tracing stuff sucks, but every creator is guilty of taking a cheap route now and again.
The underage art stuff I hate just on principle,and it certainly loses her a few points in my book, but I suppose no one was really getting hurt.
But all the other stuff...Just... wow.
How long ago was all this? Is this from a few years ago, or is relatively recent?
Admitably if you are tearing down someone’s work however justified you probably shouldn’t end it advertising someone else.
It can make you unintentionally look biased or partial.
Edited by slimcoder on May 12th 2019 at 11:22:33 AM
The people in the other thread say it was seven years ago.
I'm used to hate mobs forming to defame creators, especially women, at this point.
Ain't making any judgement calls yet.
I mean, I could give it a shot...
Well, first off, seeing everyone's reactions, I assumed the thread was like "Vizie is a stalker and/or a rapist" or something, but this? Most of it amounts to 1) she drew some cringy fetish art when she was a teenager, 2) has a couple edge lord twitter friends, 3) she got into some "OC, donut steal" deviant art drama, and 4) she partially traced a few dance moves for part of a music video she did back in 2014-16? Please, what deviant-artist hasn't done those things at some point?
And to answer a question from n341100, most of these "callouts" are from 2013 or earlier (I checked the images on ED, and they're from waaaaay back), and most of the links on more reputable sites are reposts calling it out for being gross.
Most of this is chicken-shit discourse, with a huge side helping of Holier Than Thou. I've seen tumblr callouts with more weight to them.
Now, that said, as for an actually serious point: hiring suspected abuser/pedophile Kendraws. Reading the archived link, there's some pretty damning accusations made against the guy. That being said, just doing a quick google search of the guy, I found 1) the archive of abuse, and 2) several counter-archives debunking many of the accusations, and him apologizing for the rest. I have no stake in this matter (I didnt even know about this guy till reading the twitter thread), and I have no clue clue which account is more genuine, but looking at it from Vizie's perspective, I can sort of understand why she might feel it necessary to defend him: he is effectively her employee, and (I assume) he does good work, and she likely doesn't want to lose one of her animators when she can't afford to (they're not a big studio, so if they lose an animator, thats just more months of work and money that'll be needed, to say nothing of hiring a replacement). That there are multiple accounts of his actions, each saying very different things just makes the situation more complicated, considering that it's very possible she was unaware of the accusations when hiring himnote .
Whether the man is guilty or innocent, she's basically left with a lose-lose scenario. If she defends him, they're group is more likely to actually finish the movie, but their detractors will hate them all the more, and it brings bad press. But if she throws him to the wolves, it just demonstrates to the rest of your animators that she doesn't have their backs and it puts the movie way behind schedule, not to mention that there is no guarantee that there still won't be bad press.
Edited by Eldritcho on May 12th 2019 at 2:43:03 PM
It was the "defending a pedophile" thing that turned me off of this.
This situation reminds me of what's going on with Vic and Funimation recently, only it's the opposite problem. (and I don't think I want to go further than that)
Yeah that sounds like a really complex issue that is like way too complex for me to weigh anything in about.
Edited by slimcoder on May 12th 2019 at 11:54:48 AM
My avatar may be of a detective, but you're the one doing all the detective work here. Good work. It really puts everything into perspective, and makes it much easier to follow.
That being said, it's clear to me that this is, perhaps only partially and subconsciously, coming out now because some kind of personal beef with Vivzie for some reason, and putting forth these facts without proper context on their part is evidence of that.
I still look at her somewhat differently now, but I'm not sure it's enough for me to throw her under the bus. I know for a fact that I'm not perfect, and would very much like people to give me a break.
@slimcoder Don't worry, I'm on the same boat as you and you brought several interesting points right there @Eldritchto
The reason it's coming out now is, according to that tweet, frustration over seeing HH material in their feeds and recommendations. I guess it was a straw that broke the camel's back thing.
One can only hope that more incriminating stuff doesn't show up in the days to come.
Edited by M84 on May 14th 2019 at 3:39:51 AM
I don't find it so surprising that I can't see the follow-up tweet the accuser posted. I just see a window that says "you cannot see this person's tweet".
Joriel's entire twitter is blocked to non followers now. And even followers need to request access.
This is either good (They realized how petty and misguided most of this stuff is, and they're trying to get their shit together)
Or really, REALLY bad. (Vivze's defenders have started harrasing this poor 16 year old kid causing to them to retreat, which makes both Vivze and her decent fans look bad, giving the detractors more ammunation)
Can't we all just be kind to each other? Please?
remember the rules about drama importin folks
Given both the hateful tone of the tweets and how vaild the art looked, it's genuinely hard to tell either way.
Umm, I seem to have missed some recent drama regarding Viv.
Since the original accuser blocked their twitter account, I'm guessing it's this thread which has been archived.
Other than that, I'm just going with what others are saying so correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't exactly know how to best articulate on this matter and a bit unsure if I should say anything, but there are some things I think I should say/add.
Since it hasn't been brought up yet in this forum, I wish to point out that Vivienne actually defended herself on Tumblr over the last callout she had months ago over I believe are some of the same accusations she's being accused now.
- Twitter post with screenshots of said Tumblr post
- Actual Tumblr post
- Tumblr post with just her comments over the current drama more prominent
Based on what I gather, there are some things that she has done over the years that people keep beating her over without looking into the full context to. These are apparently constantly held against her despite them being several years ago.
All I guess I can say is to not hold such matters too much like some sort of grudge as hard as it maybe for some. People aren't perfect and do make mistakes but they can change over time especially for the better. This seems to be the case for Viv from what I can understand.
The so called pedophilia/child porn/bestiality accusations from what I gather seem to mainly revolve around Addi from Viv's previous work Zoophobia and to extension his boyfriend Gustav.
Now reading through Zoophobia or at least doing some research reveals that despite some stylistic designs, Addi is actually 17 while Gustav is 19. Addi is also in his third year and Gustav is not a teacher but a graduated student who helps around as a teacher's assistant. It's a relationship with a 2 year difference not a pedophilic one. Whether a student and a teacher's assistant should be together maybe YMMV I guess for some but otherwise it's not as problematic as it's being accused of being.
For the cringey art involving Addi, it should once again be pointed out that Addi is 17 and that these art pieces were made by Viv when she was a teen. I know child porn is a serious matter but accusing cringe art involving an almost 18 year old fictional character made by a teen maybe grasping a bit too much.
As for the bestiality accusation, I kinda have to point out that Addi is a human and animal fusion as evidenced with his tail. The animals also involved in the cringe art happen to be snakes. From I gather, this seems to be reference to how Addi has a thing for snake shapeshifters which Gustav happens to be. It's still smutty overall no doubt but some context alleviates some things I think.
The racist and transphobic accusations seem to come primarily from Viv drawing fanart of two controversial ladies. As explained in her Tumblr post, Viv decided to hear out different perspectives from all sides during a time she found most stressful. She didn't believe in living in a bubble and sought out different opinions to understand things better and make her own opinions.
It so happened that Viv came across two women that while she disagreed with on many topics, she admired them for sticking to their beliefs. True, she didn't know all the things about these two but her admiring them at the time for their sticktoittiveness really shouldn't be held against her.
I mean admiring an otherwise positive trait isn't a crime in itself.
These particular accusations I guess in my opinion just stink of closemindeness and not fully attempting to understand the situation based on what I can understand.
That's all I think I can say on what I can give my thoughts on. Other matters have been expressed better by others I believe.
I've pretty much defended Viv here but that doesn't mean I agree with 100% everything she believes in and such. Just that she deserves some defense from someone who just comes off as bitter, unforgiving, and very quick to condemn others.
I'm also willing to separate creators from their work. God knows how many times I came across creators and actors whose works I like only to find out later that there's a thing or two I disagree with.
I've been really excited for Hazbin Hotel since I first saw the trailer and honestly I'm not letting whatever baggage Viv or anyone else working on the project have had in their past ruin what promises to be something great to see.
Thanks for the information and perspective...now I feel like an ass.
The one sticking point for me is that she may have defended an actual real life pedophile. That's rather more serious than the cringeworthy art.
I can understand, to an extent. (Wether or not he's guilty is a matter for the authorities, so I'm not going to insinuate either way, plus I'm not familar with his drama)
We all think we know somebody, and when something comes up to shatter that assumption, it's human to reject it despite all evidence because deep down we fear looking foolish and naive. Could be she's grown rather close to this guy, and just can't see him that way. We're all guilty of it to certain extents. And, to be frank, anyone who claims either wise is full of shit.
To qoute a character from Bojack Horseman "When you wear rose colored glasses, all the red flags look like normal flags"
And, her defense could simply be pragmatic: Dude is an artist on her small, ambitous production, and his work is presumably already in the final cut. You can't afford to be picky. Sounds kinda heartless, but it happens more than you hear.
I can totally see where you're coming from though, and I respect whatever choice you make on this, but it's important to remember that Vivize and all other creators are human beings, and thus flawed and prone to error.
@Elf Kaiser Thanks for giving your point of view. To add your point @n341100 This is why I prefer to hear the two sides of the story rather than siding with other side quickly and yeah, in the end, they are just humans who can create mistakes
Though admittedly, going to bat for a pedophile is a somewhat worse mistake than most.
We all fuck up, but we don't all fuck up to the same degree.
Edited by M84 on May 15th 2019 at 1:50:13 AM
It takes a certain kind of unlucky to wind up accidently hiring a pedo for your small-team project.
Of all the people in the world ya wind up with one of the worst ones.
Makes me think someone placed a hex on her.
Edited by slimcoder on May 15th 2019 at 3:23:03 AM
Some news from Momocon courtesy of Careless Whisper Yokai from r/Hazbin Hotel.
During the Momocon Animation stream, Viv announced that they are aiming "to release the pilot in October".
Careless Whisper Yokai also provided a link to the clip they showed during the Animation stream clipped courtesy of user minigma.
As an alternative link I guess, here's a Twitter post featuring the above clip shown during the Animation stream at Momocon.
Edited by Elfkaiser on May 25th 2019 at 5:23:12 AM
@Elfkaiser Sweet... I can't wait for that!
Checking twitter, this tweet is addressing the controversy.