Suggestion: Number Two

This◊ image failed promotion in the Image Suggestion thread. I personally like Riker/Picard, but as an alternate, the first idea that came to mind is Grand Admiral Thrawn and Admiral Pellaeon from the Star Wars EU: 1◊ (cropped to left half), 2◊, 3◊.

edited 28th Feb '17 9:11:39 PM by Willbyr

I liked it as well.

I didn't like the first one because it borders on JAFAAC territory. Arguments against this were:

1. Picard is older, therefore he must be the boss (which may not be true for all cases),
2. Riker is in the background, therefore he must be the underling (which does not follow), and
3. Picard has one more pip in his clothes, therefore he must be higher rank. Problem with this is that the pips are barely visible, and I'm not the only one who didn't notice. Check the Image Suggestion Thread for reference.

This makes the first one not a good candidate in my opinion. I do like, however, 1.2 and 1.3, as they require way less assumptions and have stronger visual clues. Cropped version of 1.2:

edited 1st Mar '17 4:38:46 AM by Gosicrystal

Tng works, Thrawn might not be an example depending on the results of The Dragon

edited 1st Mar '17 5:45:10 AM by Memers

Not really. Regardless of what is done with The Dragon, the definition for Number Two will not change. The guys in 1.2 and 1.3 are the second-in-comand? Then they're the Number Two.

It's the same two characters in all three.

Yes, but you get the point.

Not really. Pellaeon being the Big Bad's second would be The Dragon thus should go there, he is also Dragon Ascendant which leans to that.

edited 1st Mar '17 2:34:55 PM by Memers

Technically, these suggestions would be valid for both Number Two and The Dragon if we do the Trope Transplant since examples of subtropes are also examples of the supertrope... but I guess it would be better to illustrate the subtrope.

In other words, other than the strawmanning in post 3, that suggestion is also too easy to confuse with other tropes, as it doesn't show any difference?

How did I strawman? If I misinterpreted something, please explain.

1.2 is better as it shows that the guy in the right is a captain who has just received pretty much the ultimate ruling power from a superior (who must be The Leader if he can bestow such power). And I didn't need to know the work to infer this.

edited 1st Mar '17 4:54:27 PM by Gosicrystal

I explained that in the other thread. You used the word "must" as if there's no other option, and then countered it with "but there could be exceptions". That's not a point that was argued in the first place. So, the post in this thread didn't counter any of the actually made arguments, but only the ones you wrote up yourself and presented as the opposition.

In the Image Suggestion Thread you said:

From this I deduced that you're expecting the average reader to establish leader/right-hand relationship based on a pose, but it can be interpreted in more than the way you're considering and that's what I pointed out. You're also expecting readers to establish this relationship based on the distance to the camera, but as it should be obvious, relative position to the camera has nothing to do with rank or identity, which I also pointed out.

Then Morgenthaler said this in response to Yinyang107 saying there are no visual clues besides the barely noticeable pips (Yinyang107 agreed with me):

Which implies that a reader who doesn't know the characters should think that Picard is the superior because he's older.

It's not a matter of choice of words (prove, indicate, show, illustrate) or even probabilty of proof or indication, but what we expect the reader to do in order to understand that the picture is an example of the trope. The reader is supposed to make assumptions based on questionable evidence and that's what my point has been the entire time.

I have not been strawmanning, but streamlining and deciphering the arguments; any possible distortion of arguments has been unintended. Perhaps next time we would avoid confusion by elaborating our points (I may have also barely stated my points; I'll try to explain further).

edited 2nd Mar '17 5:50:37 AM by Gosicrystal

Yes, I'm expecting the average leader to make the assumption that someone older is probably higher rank, especially given the bit about one of them standing at attention. I am not, as you falsely claim, asserting that it absolutely must be so. That is your strawman. It's not "streamlining an argument" if you twist it in your favour and inject counterarguments that were already included in the original argument you're supposedly arguing against, especially after I've already clarified that specific point. It strains the belief that you're arguing in good faith.

I very much like the TNG one. The composition of them is excellent and these two capture the trope so well.

And in my opinion, TNG characters can never be truly JAFAAP, at least for some good twenty years from now, no? TNG was mainstream. Even people who never watched the show would usually know who the characters are.

Clock expired; closing.