Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

A bigger concern to me is actually not that it'll end on a downer, but that the upbeat ending will require an Avatar-esque Deus ex Machina where "the Force itself destroys the First Order" or something because they're that kriffing invincible.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Feb 15th 2019 at 8:23:03 AM

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

This is my concern as well. They've made the First Order so powerful that any victory over them would feel unconvincing.

In general, the thesis "The bad guys have limitless resources, bleeding-edge tech, destroyed the galactic government in an afternoon, and hunted the heroes like animals, but see what losers they are in person!" is kind of weak. I don't really care how ineffectual Hux as a man is, or how weird Kylo Space-Incel Ren is, when they get essentially everything they want, whenever they want.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 15th 2019 at 2:40:25 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

The way they've set up the First Order, strength wise, is so odd. In backstory, they were supposed to be the underdogs. Over the course of the last two movies - heck, even just the first movie - they lose ridiculous amounts of resources and manpower so as to make their victories more pyrrhic than anything. Every big gambit they make to win falls apart in their hands - after inflicting casualties, but without any headway.

But the story wants them to be the Empire, so in execution the stories try to compensates this with the desire to make them more Empire-like by just giving them resources offscreen whenever it looks like they're losing, culminating in them evidently sweeping across the entire galaxy offscreen, taking over everything with forces we never actually see, all despite having been definitively defeated not long before. It's jarring.

IIRC, the first definitive explanation for it (beyond the "the First Order is out there, they've got... things! And stuff!" mystique that most of the current Expanded Universe went for instead) was in Resistance, literally last week, when they establish that the First Order had a hidden stockpiled fleet twice as large as the Republic's before Starkiller Base was even completed.

But in short, the story simultaneously portrays them as losers and as the biggest, baddest threat around. And to be honest, I think the "losers" portrayals are more interesting.

Either way, I've always thought it would be really cool if in Movie #9 they embraced that pyrrhic nature of the First Order by having their resources be dwindling, but their drive to burn the rest of the galaxy down with them increasing, making them a threat in the sense of a mad dog or cornered rat.

All in all, I really want the big stakes here not to be that the First Order is in danger of taking over the galaxy, but that they are about to plunge the entire galaxy into chaos. And they don't need to be darkmattered into being the biggest game in the universe again for that to work.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:05:34 PM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

The First Order being so powerful is what gives credence to the "even greater threat" rumours IMO - As it stands the Resistance CANNOT win in a plausible fashion unless something takes a massive chunk out of the First Order....

Or Kylo is even more incompetent a leader than he seems already, but I can't see them doing that to the nominal Big Bad if we are meant to take him at all seriously. (Those who still do at any rate.)

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

But it was the same thing with the Empire — and yet almost nobody criticizes ROTJ for giving a massive victory to the Rebellion. Heck, that's kind of the point of Star Wars — that small groups of people can achieve major victories over large, almost unstoppable forces. And hey, the First Order has already suffered huge losses against the Resistance — plus, they are being led by Kylo Ren, someone who probably doesn't have the same planning skills as Snoke did.

In any case, "strength of the enemy" isn't the same thing as "personality of the enemy." I can totally see the First Order as a giant threat, but, at the same time, filled with people who aren't very competent. The First Order, to me, is like King Joffrey — you know he's bad at ruling or fighting or, you know, being a king, but at the same time, he can still do terrible things.

It wasn't the same thing really considering we definitely knew the rebels had a army to fight with still after Empire Strikes back.

There is also the fact that post ROJ had books that showed the empire wasn't completely defeated.

Even if it is similar that isn't a pass to do the same thing all over again.

"When I offered to make Norea my third back-up girlfriend she just glared at me and started throwing things at me.." Renee Costa

I'm... pretty sure Ren wanted Rey to rule with him at the end of TLJ. He also started a group named in his honor. I mean we never actually see them but, at the very least, I don't think Ren's misanthropic, self-pitying, self-loathing, misogynistic, or racist. He's just a massive dick.

He's a little entitled maybe, but then, that's kind of what happens when you kill your boss and assume power over an intergalactic empire in the span of 10 minutes.

Edited by Soble on Feb 16th 2019 at 6:03:09 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Were they actually set up as the underdog's in the backstory? I remember people claiming Rian said in the commentary on the Last Jedi dvd's that they had the greatest infantry in the galaxy and their fleet would be the best if under the command of anyone other than Hux, and also claims that the comics for the Disney EU went on to say that the old Empire was so powerful the Rebels only chance of winning was killing Vader and Palpatine so it fell apart and the First Order has always seemed to be treated as "The Empire, but better".

Edited by doineedaname on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:19:46 AM

I think self-pitying and self-loathing are perfect words to describe Ren given he so desperately wants to be a badass villain like Grampa but can't pull it off at all. And given he's now the leader of a group that commits massacres and genocide fairly casually there's probably some misanthropy going on there too.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

So calling Ren a misanthrope wouldn't be exactly accurate. Murderous dickhole, yes. Misanthrope, no, unless there's a broader definition.

I mean, he's still on the Space Nazi team, so I guess you can call him whatever. A non-misanthropic, fratricidal Jerkass Space Nazi is still a fratricidal Jerkass Space Nazi.

Edited by Soble on Feb 16th 2019 at 7:01:59 AM

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

The Rebels had a fleet, but not that many. The Resistance, too, has a fleet, but not that many. Even after TLJ, when most of it was destroyed, they still have some remaining ships.

What makes you think it won't be the same for the First Order?

Edited by alliterator on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:49:20 AM

The implication in the OT was that the Rebel Alliance was slowly building in power over the course of the trilogy: this is where the Original Trilogy's use of time skips or even noodle incidents worked in its favor, with the viewer allowed to come to the conclusion that the Rebels have been doing things, winning small victories and toughening themselves over the course of the war - essentially allowing the viewer to mentally link the Rebellion's growth with Luke's own growing strength.

This allowed the reveal that the Rebels had a massive fleet, even if it wasn't stated beforehand, to land without breaking suspension of disbelief too much, which thus allows the audience to believe that in the final battle they finally have what it takes to take on the Empire

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:58:36 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Another general criticism is the impression the Galaxy is giving is that the Resistance basically has to liberate them basically against their will. The impotence, complacency, and general Straw Civilian characterization of the New Republic and everyone not affiliated with Leia gives the trilogy a vanguardist sort of tone — the Galaxy doesn't want to be liberated but will be whether they want it or not.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

This is the way the Rebels work in the OT:

First movie, they establish their presence, Leia as a leader, Luke meets them where they reveal they have a base with fighters and staff. They end the movie with a victory and a fair chunk of their group very much alive.

In the second movie the large group is established right off the bat, they get ambushed but a they show a number escape. Then the movie narrows in scope to focus only on Luke and co. And at the end they reveal the larger fleet setting up their retaliation in 3.

In the third movie the fleet is in the background of the narrative until they come to play their part on the very end aiding Lando in the destruction of DSII.

There's build up, there's no catastrophic reduction of their numbers, and they get decisive victories when they play their part at the end of the each movie.

In the ST they get established as a large group, use their numbers to give hell to the FO at Starkiller and achieve a what seems a decisive victory (I mean, they blew up the FO's planet AND superweapon). Somehat offset by the fact that the FO thoroughly cripples the Republic the resistance was trying to defend.

Come next movie, what we see in the film is the bulk of the fleet in the backgroud waiting for that stupid bombing run in the begining of the movie, the destruction of their base, a chase through space that thins out their number to such a degree that they end the movie all cramped together inside the goddamn Falcon and they explicitely say no other allies are willing to help them at this stage.

The framing of both couldn't be more different.

Now, the whole point at the end of TLJ is that Luke's sacrifice will reignite the will to fight, so they can reasonably boost the Resitance for the final film. But at least show some of it, show Rey and co. seeking allies. SOMETHING. Because if the rebuild of the Resitance is only given a passing line in the opening crawl, you can bet your ass people will complain about it.

Specially if the FO still displays a stupid amount of numerical and technological superiority at the same time.

Edited by MrSeyker on Feb 16th 2019 at 9:39:27 AM

From what I understand, Leia had already sent off a bunch of the fleet prior to the First Order showing up — not everybody was still at the base and needed to be evacuated. This is why characters like Snap Wexley didn't appear in TLJ. So the Resistance still has a fleet, even if it's a smaller one than the one they had before.

Even if there's a time skip? Because Luke went from a Jedi novice to a Jedi master in a time skip, so I really don't think people will complain if, after a time skip, the Resistance has rebuilt some of their fleet.

The side materials giving a Marvel civilians-like portrayal of the Galaxy's people is my least favorite thing about the new canon. The TLJ Visual Dictionary even says that many people were starting to like the FO better even before the Hosnian Cataclysm, which suggests that either the Galaxy has an improbably large number of filthy goddamned pockmarked fascist arseholes OR the New Republic screwed up so badly people got nostalgic for Palpatine in a single generation. ...wow.

Edited by HamburgerTime on Feb 16th 2019 at 12:45:19 PM

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

The movie doesn't communicate that a part of the Resistance had already evacuated, though.

While it is a reasonable assumption, and probably backed by other material, no line in the movie explicitely communicates such (that I recall - in b4 another round of quotes to prove people wrong starts).

What we SEE is the Resistance flagship the Raddus and a whole lot of other cruisers and support ships jusy waiting.

And then the complete reduction of the fleet to about a hundred people in the Falcon.

People are going to leave the movie with that last image in mind.

Now Ep 9 can definitely work around the corner it finds itself is with use of a time skip, but how well it works will depend on the language they use to get it across.

I honestly always felt the OT timeskip was insufficient for Luke's character turn into Jedi, but let it slide because the movie shows his true test is yet to come (and they pay lip service to his training and the passage of time, which Rey doesn't really benefit from because of the narrative choices TLJ made).

Not sure I could have let slide the massive Mon Calamri fleet if not for a bunch of other establishing shots and set up prior.

It's two issues of different magnitude, and the ST is stuck with the later.

Edited by MrSeyker on Feb 16th 2019 at 10:53:24 AM

Soble: What people are refering is that Kylo have this somewhat looking of a alt right in a way: he looks nerdy or a least unimpresive, join the dark side for temptation and weakness of chararter rathern tha moments letting there like vader, he miss the point of Vader enterely and act like he is cosplaying him, he have the vein of this weird empire fan star wars is kinda infamous too.

" The First Order, to me, is like King Joffrey — you know he's bad at ruling or fighting or, you know, being a king, but at the same time, he can still do terrible things."

Problem with that is Joffrey while being hurtfull dosent really have much power: he is escenically a puppet king in general and most of is awfullness got into the war in the first plae, when he die he didnt affect the power of the lannister that much.

Is the problem of this "being idiots but powerfull" kinda contradic each other, the first order go very far even with idiots like Hux and Kylo and yet their idicy and petulancy make them incapable of taken them sieriously, as result their defeat come as "yeah" rather than a "wow!".

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

The First Order, to me, is like King Joffrey — you know he's bad at ruling or fighting or, you know, being a king, but at the same time, he can still do terrible things.

Isn't him being bad at fighting only a show thing as in the books he wanted to go out and fight against Stannis and Tyrion okayed it to boost morale until Cersei made people drag him back to the castle when they started losing and despite the difference in age did pretty well sparing against Robb?

Edited by doineedaname on Feb 16th 2019 at 8:15:10 AM

Joffrey was (in the book) a decent enough fighter on a one-to-one basis (though not exceptional) but his leadership and tactical decisions were frequently awful. There is quite a lot of similarities in this regard to Kylo, who in and of himself has power and skill but as a commander on a macro level is at best untested and at worst absolutely awful - his mercurial nature and short fuse don't lend themselves to a great leader IMO.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

What's the point of watching the original and prequel trilogy if the Skywalker's legacy ultimately amounts to Jack shit?

Place your past in a book burn the pages let them cook.

Failure is the best teacher. We for now don't have our conclusion, therefore we don't know if they'll be "jack shit" now do we?

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."

Thatsbait.gif

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Feb 17th 2019 at 1:05:32 AM

Well it’s a great reminder of the trials of life.

You are just one big failure.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Everyone is going to die and the Earth will ultimately burn up when the sun becomes a Red Giant and the universe will eventually end itself when everything becomes cold and bleak and the Heat Death of the Universe will happen. So what's the point of anything, you might ask, if everything amounts to jack shit?