Follow TV Tropes

Following

Official China Discussion Thread

Go To

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#2401: May 30th 2020 at 2:00:18 PM

The Great Firewall Of China is the new Iron Curtain.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2402: May 30th 2020 at 2:12:57 PM

I really wonder who'll stay in power longer, Putin or Xi.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#2403: May 30th 2020 at 2:13:15 PM

There's no proxy wars yet, either.

Maybe the first one that pops out will be the wake up call.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#2404: May 30th 2020 at 3:06:27 PM

The past is only a rough guide to the future, at best. Thinking of the confrontation between the US and China as a second Cold War will lead to a great many inaccurate assumptions. Globalization and an integrated global economy would cripple pretty much every major economy in the world, with the current economic meltdown following Cornonavirus lockdowns serving as a warning for the consequences of reversing course on globalization.

So I seriously doubt the kind of bifurcated world that existed in the Cold War is going to reemergence. What we will see is going to be very specific to the circumstances of the 21st century. The relative power of the US and China compared to the rest of the world pales in comparison to the balance of power at the start of the Cold War, where all other industrial powers in the world were in ruins following World War 2, and the US comprised 50% of the global economy all on its own. The Global South is also considerably more developed than in the Cold War, and that trend is only set to continue.

Consequently, the 21st century is all but guaranteed to be multipolar. Anyone trying to unilaterally command the globe, whether that’s the US or China is going to fail.

@Silas: Okay, point taken, it’s hardly set in stone or clear which way the wind is blowing, but you can’t deny that Trump is shifting the Overton Window in the United States towards Isolationism.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on May 30th 2020 at 8:17:12 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2405: May 30th 2020 at 3:29:41 PM

@Foreign: I bet Putin, China can survive without Xi but Russia really seems to depend a lot more in Putin's strongman persona. I feel Xi could left to someone he considerates a worthy sucessor, I can't imagine Putin doing that

Edited by KazuyaProta on May 30th 2020 at 5:30:58 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2407: May 30th 2020 at 5:03:58 PM

India is no proxy, it's a global actor in its own right.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2408: May 30th 2020 at 5:10:55 PM

India is not a proxy at all and has conducted a very independent, non-aligned foreign policy from its founding - Pakistan is more likely.

luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#2409: May 30th 2020 at 5:25:56 PM

I bet Putin, China can survive without Xi but Russia really seems to depend a lot more in Putin's strongman persona. I feel Xi could left to someone he considerates a worthy sucessor, I can't imagine Putin doing that.

In my opinion, I think Xi will be the one who could stand more time than Putin. Putin, and Russia by default, needs Chinese technology and help in order to survive, and even more in the case Trump is removed from office and the very likely retalation from the U.S. once Biden, or any Democrat government, would likely engage against Russia (in terms of more crippling economic sanctions, mind you). Without China's help, Russia would sink even harder than the Soviet Union ever did.

Consequently, the 21st century is all but guaranteed to be multipolar. Anyone trying to unilaterally command the globe, whether that’s the US or China is going to fail.

The problem here is that a second cold war would be more dangerous than the first one, considering that there are thousands of deaths due to the coronavirus, and the U.S. is going to make sure, one way or another, that China pays somehow for all this, which leads us to an even more dangerous situation than in the first cold war, where the main problem was just from a very ideological nature (excluding proxy wars, of course).

In short, there would only be two ways this cold war could end: either one of the two adversaries would end up in the same way as the Soviet Union, or one would end up being destroyed, either by domestic strife, or at the hands of the other in a nuclear war.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2410: May 30th 2020 at 5:37:54 PM

[up] I really don't get why do you think USA is somehow super invested into trying to anhilate China. Even Trump's biggest rage fits against them are just "YOU FUCKING LIAR"

Edited by KazuyaProta on May 30th 2020 at 7:38:01 AM

Watch me destroying my country
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2411: May 30th 2020 at 5:46:07 PM

[up] What they said. Why do you always think that full-out nuclear war is the endgame?

luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#2412: May 30th 2020 at 6:00:55 PM

[up][up]I don't think the U.S. could be planning to nuke China a any time. They would likely to resort to sanctions first, and the only reason they could go to war against them would be if the Chinese does something ever nasty, like invading Taiwan, unless the U.S. want that country to end like another Crimea just to avoid to go to a war against the CCP.

Edited by luisedgarf on May 30th 2020 at 8:01:06 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2413: May 30th 2020 at 6:03:16 PM

Economical Santions don't scream "make sure, one way or another, that China pays somehow for all this". Not even close to the height of USA/ URSS Cold War.

Watch me destroying my country
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#2414: May 30th 2020 at 7:08:11 PM

[up] except in the most literal sense of pay.

eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#2415: May 30th 2020 at 7:24:51 PM

There's no Iron Curtain this time because China's role in globalisation makes for a radically different dynamic from the OG Cold War. The Soviets, at their height, never did have the power to make multinational companies bend over backwards for market access like what China is doing.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2416: May 30th 2020 at 7:43:39 PM

China's brand of neoimperialist expansion draws from the Cold War US and Soviet models aplenty, and lets them put their own spin on it.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2418: May 30th 2020 at 7:54:12 PM

Crossposted from the Military thread:

NYT on the Sino-Indian border tensions.

I demand that people give this piece on the 1962 Sino-Indian Border War a very brief read before looking into the article posted below.

    Article 
China and India Brawl at 14,000 Feet Along the Border

As China projects its power across Asia, and along the disputed India-China border in the Himalayas, India is feeling surrounded. Both sides insist they don’t want a war, but thousands of troops have been sent.

By Jeffrey Gettleman and Steven Lee Myers

NEW DELHI — High in the Himalayas, an enormous fistfight erupted in early May between the soldiers of China and India. Brawls at 14,000 feet along their inhospitable and disputed frontier are not terribly unusual, but what happened next was.

A few days later, Chinese troops confronted Indian soldiers again, this time at several other remote border points in the Himalayas, some more than 1,000 miles apart. Since then both armies have rushed in thousands of reinforcements. Indian analysts say that China has beefed up its forces with dump trucks, excavators, troop carriers, artillery and armored vehicles and that China is now occupying Indian territory.

No shots have been fired, as the de facto border code dictates, but the soldiers have fought fiercely with rocks, wooden clubs and their hands in a handful of clashes. In one melee at the glacial lake Pangong Tso, several Indian troops were hurt badly enough that they had to be evacuated by helicopter, and Indian analysts said Chinese troops were injured as well.

Nobody thinks China and India are about to go to war. But the escalating buildup has turned into their most serious confrontation since 2017 and may be a sign of more trouble to come as the world’s two most populous countries increasingly bump up against each other in one of the bleakest and most remote borderlands on earth.

President Trump, unsolicited, stepped in on Wednesday, offering on Twitter to mediate what he called “a raging border dispute.”

For India, the Chinese incursions and maneuvers at multiple points along the more than 2,100-mile border have raised suspicions of a concerted campaign to exert pressure on the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

With the world consumed by the coronavirus pandemic, China has acted forcefully to defend its territorial claims, including in the Himalayas. In recent weeks, the Chinese have sunk a Vietnamese fishing boat in the South China Sea; swarmed a Malaysian offshore oil rig; menaced Taiwan; and severely tightened their grip on the semiautonomous region of Hong Kong.

The confrontation with India “fits a broader pattern of Chinese assertiveness, ” said Tanvi Madan, director of the India Project at the Brookings Institution in Washington, noting that it was the fourth flare-up since China’s authoritarian leader, Xi Jinping, rose to power at the end of 2012.

All this, he added, could also be “Beijing’s way of sending a political message” to India not to get too close to the United States and to back off its criticism of the way China has handled the coronavirus.

Even before the scuffling, India was feeling increasingly hemmed in by China’s expanding economic and geopolitical influence in South Asia.

To the west, the Chinese are working with Pakistan, India’s archenemy, and recently agreed to help construct an enormous dam on the border of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, an area India claims.

To the east, China’s new friend, Nepal, just produced a map that challenges where the Indian border lies; India has blamed China for stirring up the trouble. Nepal was once a close ally, but after India encouraged a punishing trade blockade in 2015, Nepal drifted closer to China.

To the south, deep in the tropics, the Chinese have taken over an island in the Maldives, a few hundred miles off India’s coast. Indian military experts say China has brought in millions of pounds of sand, expanding the island for possible use as an airstrip or submarine base.

“Obviously, the Chinese aim is to pressurize India,” said D.S. Hooda, a retired general in India’s army.

China’s foreign ministry has blamed India for the recent tensions but tried to play down the confrontation. That is in stark contrast to similar border skirmishes in 2017, when the two countries squared off for 73 days over another contested Himalayan border region near Bhutan, leading to a dangerous spike in nationalistic sentiment on both sides.

“The Chinese border troops are committed to upholding China’s territorial and sovereignty security, responding resolutely to India’s trespassing and infringing activities and maintaining peace and tranquillity,” a spokesman, Zhao Lijian, said after the first public reports of clashes emerged in mid-May.

He urged India to “refrain from taking any unilateral actions that may complicate the situation.”

Both countries run patrols along the disputed border, known as the Line of Actual Control, the precise location of which can be blurry. The packs of soldiers marching up and down the mountains are under strict orders not to shoot at each other, security analysts said, but that doesn’t stop them from throwing rocks. Or the occasional punch.

Sometimes, big passing patrols collide. A few years ago, another Indo-China brawl broke out — and was captured on video — at the same mountain lake where some of the clashes happened this month.

China has not officially acknowledged any recent deployment of forces to the Himalayas. But Global Times, a tabloid controlled by the Communist Party, cited a source close to the People’s Liberation Army in a May 18 article who said China’s military bolstered its forces in response to what it considered illegal construction by India in or near Chinese territory.

China has a superior military, which analysts believe could force India to back down. Ajai Shukla, a former Indian Army colonel, estimated that China had brought in three brigades of the People’s Liberation Army — amounting to thousands of troops — and India had deployed around 3,000 reinforcements.

“If they want to evict the Chinese, the Indian Army would have to start a shooting war,” Mr. Shukla said. He doesn’t think that will happen and added that India’s options are “limited by not wanting this to escalate.”

Just a few months ago, Mr. Modi and Mr. Xi were sipping fresh coconuts together during a quick summit meeting in southern India. A good relationship would help both countries in their aspirations for world power.

Still, they have become increasingly watchful of each other, especially in the high Himalayas, where few ever go.

India has recently stepped up efforts to improve the roads its military uses to crisscross the mountain passes in the Ladakh region, on the border of Tibet. These roads are not easy to build. They snake across a gravelly landscape of high altitude rivers, glaciers and passes at 17,000 feet above sea level.

Analysts said that China did not intend to start a war but that it wanted to frustrate India’s road-building efforts. The race to make these high mountain roads is becoming increasingly fraught. The 2017 standoff between India and China began when Indian troops physically blocked a Chinese road crew in a disputed region claimed by Bhutan, a close ally of India’s.

China is also sensitive about the Indian border because it abuts two regions within China that Beijing is especially concerned about: Tibet and Xinjiang.

The spark of the recent tensions seems to have been one particular new road that the Indians have been building to reach a military airstrip at India’s northernmost border outpost, which was the site of another border standoff in 2013.

The two countries have established mechanisms for resolving border conflicts since 1962, when they went to war in the Himalayas, with India losing badly.

“There hasn’t been a shot fired in years,” Ms. Madan said, adding that the last death from a border skirmish happened in 1975.

Still, tensions could easily flare.

“All of this is happening in the area where they fought in the ’62 war,” she said. “There is a lot of baggage associated with this on both sides.”

eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#2419: May 30th 2020 at 7:56:12 PM

Also, since the Minneapolis law enforcement has been showing up in the news lately, it might be time to bring up this old-ish story (CW sexual violence).

    Article 
MINNEAPOLIS — When Liu Jingyao introduced herself, in the lobby of her apartment building, I didn’t recognize her. It was a puzzling feeling. For an entire year, photos of her had blanketed the Chinese internet. Like tens of millions of other Chinese, I had watched and rewatched surveillance video of her in this very building. She was one of the most talked about and mysterious women in China, and I thought I knew what she looked like.

In the video, she wanders the halls of a mazelike building, with a man trailing along. They get in and out of several elevators. She seems unsure about how to get to her apartment. She wears striking waist-length hair and a long, dark knit dress. She doesn’t look glamorous, exactly, but for a 21-year-old college junior, she is dressed smartly.

But on a morning in early August, she greeted me in a loosefitting checkered dress. Now 22, she looked pale and nervous. Her lips were chapped. She invited me upstairs, and began an intense conversation that continued for 18 straight hours.

In the summer of 2018, Ms. Liu, a student at the University of Minnesota, alleged that the billionaire founder of one of China’s largest companies, JD.com, followed her back to her apartment and raped her. The executive, known as Liu Qiangdong in China and Richard Liu in the English-speaking world, was arrested by Minneapolis police and released within 24 hours. (He and Ms. Liu are not related.) He insisted that the sex was consensual, and prosecutors declined to charge him. In April, Ms. Liu accused Mr. Liu of rape in a Minnesota civil court, seeking more than $50,000 in damages.

But hers is not a typical #MeToo story. After her name became common knowledge on the Chinese internet, Ms. Liu was widely called a slut, a whore, a liar, a gold digger and many other things. It may be difficult for Westerners to grasp the scale and intensity of her online shaming. But the Monica Lewinsky frenzy is a good comparison, had it taken place in the era of Twitter and YouTube in a country with 800 million internet users and no independent news media. When Ms. Liu and I met, it was the first time she had ever spoken to an English-language publication about what she has endured.

‘A feeling that someone is watching me’

In her apartment, a 500-square-foot studio, Ms. Liu showed me photos of trips she had taken to Morocco, Greece and Spain, before all that had happened. She looked different then. Her eyes were brighter, and her smile looked unreserved.

She said she had thrown away half of her cosmetics and no longer wore makeup. Like many young Chinese, she used to like designer clothes and handbags; now she mostly wears Muji, the inexpensive Japanese brand whose style reputation in China might be described as dowdy and demure.

When Ms. Liu transferred to the university a year ago, she chose the high-floor apartment for its view of a nearby park and a water tower known to locals as the Witch’s Hat. Now, she said, she keeps the blinds down day and night. “I always have a feeling that someone is watching me from outside,” she said. “I want to be as inconspicuous as possible.”

It’s an understandable concern, given the social-media attention directed at Ms. Liu, which has been vast and often vicious. On Weibo, China’s equivalent of Twitter, her case has been one of the most popular topics of the last two years.

“The woman is a slut,” one commenter said. “The woman looks disgusting,” commented another. “It was obvious that they disagreed on the price,” added a third. “Looks like the woman set up the whole thing.” And one suggested that Mr. Liu was the actual victim, writing, “Look at the woman’s build, I absolutely believe that Liu Qiangdong was raped.”

These are just a few of the 8,500 comments on a single Weibo post, which was retweeted 14,000 times and liked by 95,000 users. Now imagine this, and worse, at scale, for months and months.

Many of the most active hashtags related to the case, including #RichardLiulawsuit and #RichardLiusexualassault, have been disabled on Weibo. But even less popular hashtags regarding the case get an astonishing amount of attention. One, which has to do with a denial that Mr. Liu was getting divorced, has 170 million views. Another, which concerns a defamation lawsuit Mr. Liu filed against a Chinese blogger, has 130 million views. A hashtag about a pretrial hearing in September has logged 110 million views.

Followers of the case quickly translate legal documents into Chinese and add subtitles to police audio and video. In some ways, Ms. Liu has become a figure as polarizing as President Trump. In July, the morning after the Minneapolis police released a report on the case, I got into a debate with a friend, and I suggested that she might want to read the document first before jumping to conclusions. My friend, an accomplished career woman and busy mother, replied that she had indeed read it — all 149 pages, in English, overnight, purely out of curiosity.

Ms. Liu’s case is attracting so much attention because she is accusing one of the country’s most powerful men of behavior that has long been ignored. Sexual harassment and assault are widespread in China, and elites face little scrutiny. The workings of government and the private lives of national leaders are off-limits to the news media. Self-made tech tycoons are widely admired celebrities.

Among this class of billionaires, Mr. Liu is one of the most high-profile. Born in a village in the eastern province of Jiangsu, he likes to recount how his family was able to afford meat only once or twice a year, and how he went to college with $70 raised by his fellow villagers. He founded JD.com in the early days of Chinese e-commerce, and turned the company into a logistics colossus. Mr. Liu became an entrepreneurial icon, known for putting on a helmet and JD.com’s red uniform to personally make deliveries on a three-wheeled electric bike one day a year.

Mr. Liu only got more famous in 2015, when he married a 21-year-old student and internet celebrity named Zhang Zetian. By the summer of 2018, when he traveled to Minnesota, he was worth an estimated $7.5 billion.

27 toasts of wine

Ms. Liu grew up in Beijing, introverted and intense, the only child of an affluent family. Her father was a businessman, and her mother, Ms. Liu said, was strict and quick to scold or punish her physically. She only allowed Ms. Liu to wear her hair short. Today, Ms. Liu’s waist-length cut is an act of rebellion.

In 2016, she went to a liberal arts college in Minnesota to study literature, while also practicing piano two and half hours a day. She dreamed of becoming a diplomat or a professor of linguistics, but she was also interested in business. She transferred to the University of Minnesota’s Carlson School of Management in August 2018, where a professor recruited her to volunteer with a program for visiting international executives. One of them was Mr. Liu.

Every morning, Ms. Liu got up early and took the executive visitors jogging. On the fifth day, she was invited to a group dinner at a Japanese restaurant. When Ms. Liu arrived, she found that she was the only volunteer — and the only woman — at a table of about a dozen middle-aged Chinese men. Surveillance video shows that one of the men directed her to sit next to Mr. Liu, the most accomplished and wealthiest member of the group. At Chinese business dinners, it is common for pretty young women to be placed next to powerful men to laugh at their lewd jokes.

In the next two hours, according to the police, members of the party raised their glasses of red wine in at least 27 toasts. Ms. Liu drank 19 times. The man sitting across from her passed out on the table and had to be carried away.

After dinner, Ms. Liu left in a limousine with Mr. Liu and two of his female assistants. They drove to a house rented by one of the executives, but Ms. Liu didn’t want to go in. The chauffeur, whose name is redacted in police reports, later told officers that he saw Ms. Liu and Mr. Liu talking in front of his car. “Then he grabbed her arm, kind of overpower her and bring her to my car in the back,” the chauffeur said, according to a transcript. “I look in my mirror and this guy was all over this girl.” Then, he said, one of Mr. Liu’s assistants pushed the mirror up to obscure the chauffeur’s view. The chauffeur told the police that he didn’t hear anyone saying “stop” or “no," or cry for help.

Mr. Liu went with Ms. Liu to her apartment. A few hours later, a friend of hers reported to the police that Ms. Liu had told him, via a messaging app, that she had been raped.

A spokesman for Mr. Liu denied that account, saying, “The evidence released by the Minneapolis Police Department, including the written police report and surveillance video, does not support the accusations that have been made.”

When I met with Ms. Liu, she said that she seldom left her apartment anymore and that she spends most of her time cooking, drawing, playing piano, watching Japanese soap operas and struggling with whether to check Chinese social-media platforms. Each night, she double-checked her door lock before going to bed. On her nightstand were a canister of pepper spray and a stun gun that she purchased after that evening.

Ms. Liu said she had a recurring nightmare: a man forcing her down and sitting on top of her. Her psychiatrist told her that it was a common symptom of post-traumatic stress disorder.

She said that during nights of insomnia, she would replay in her head how she should have handled the situation differently. She would try not to be intimidated by how powerful Mr. Liu was. She would definitely drink less. She would definitely not tell the police, when they arrived, “Yes, I was raped, but not that kind of rape.” Or wait two days before telling her parents that she was the woman in the biggest news of the week in China. Or wait five days before getting a lawyer. Or use the word “money” when telling Mr. Liu’s lawyer what she wanted, in addition to an apology, when the English word she meant to use was the more neutral “compensation.”

“I was such a fool,” she said. “I was such a coward. I messed it up.”

One woman versus the Chinese internet

In 2018, encouraged by the #Me Too! movement elsewhere in the world, more than 50 Chinese women came forward with their stories of being sexually harassed or assaulted. The men accused included professors, journalists and NGO organizers. Some lost their jobs or resigned.

But the fledgling movement started to lose its momentum just around the time of Ms. Liu’s allegation. Men who had been publicly accused were starting to sue their accusers for defamation. #Me Too! victims faced criticism from even the most liberal-minded corners in China. Most important of all, the Chinese government — distrustful of independent social movements — clamped down on public discussion of gender issues.

Online allegations of sexual misconduct were one of the most heavily censored topics on WeChat, China’s biggest social-media platform, in 2018, according to WeChatscope, a research project at the University of Hong Kong. The hashtags #MeToo and #Woyeshi — a Mandarin translation — were banned. Some of the WeChat accounts that voiced support for Ms. Liu were deleted. WeChat is owned by Tencent, which is also the biggest shareholder of JD.com.

Ms. Liu’s experiences illustrate how Chinese society treats women who dare to speak up about sexual assault. Victims need to be seen as perfect to win any sympathy from the public, or they’ll be subject to immense slut-shaming. Younger women who sleep with older and powerful men, willingly or unwillingly, face even more public distain.

In December 2018, Minneapolis prosecutors decided not to charge Mr. Liu with sexual assault because they did not find enough evidence to pursue a case against him. They made the announcement without meeting with Ms. Liu. She said that when she heard the news, she felt “as if the sky had fallen.” But what came next on the Chinese internet was much worse.

One major Chinese news site posted an article headlined, “Richard Liu’s Attorney: Everything Happened in the Room was Voluntary. Woman Repeatedly Asked for Money.” The story featured a lengthy statement from one of Mr. Liu’s lawyers, but nothing from Ms. Liu’s side. It got 14,000 comments. A well-respected former writer for the Southern Weekly, the country’s most liberal-leaning newspaper, shared the article on Weibo with the comment, “Richard Liu isn’t guilty legally though he is morally. The woman is a cheap slut. She’s inviting humiliation.”

A few days after Ms. Liu filed her lawsuit, in April 2019, a heavily edited video surfaced on the Chinese internet. It was titled “Proof of a Gold Digger Trap?” and was cut to give the impression that Ms. Liu had invited Mr. Liu to her apartment for sex. It was posted to Weibo by an account that had never posted anything before. One of Mr. Liu’s Chinese lawyers wrote online that the video was “authentic,” and it was viewed more than 54 million times. Numerous Chinese websites published articles saying Ms. Liu had escorted Mr. Liu into her room.

Separately, one of China’s most influential newspapers published an edited audio clip, in which Ms. Liu can be heard asking Mr. Liu’s lawyer for an apology and money. News of the recording was reposted widely. Taken together, the video and audio clip seemed to turn the whole of the Chinese internet against Ms. Liu.

In Minneapolis, I asked her to estimate what proportion of news consumers in China believed her. Initially, she said 30 percent. Thinking about it longer, Ms. Liu said that there were probably just three types of people in her corner: women who have been sexually assaulted, feminists and people who know her. “Definitely not 30 percent,” she said, a little defeated. “Ten percent at best.”

Then Ms. Liu grew agitated. “I didn’t want to report to the police in the first place because I knew this would happen,” she said. “People would look at me and say, ‘There are too many holes in her story. She said she was drunk, but the way she walked in the video didn’t show it at all.’ But I didn’t say that I was so dead drunk that I couldn’t move.”

She kept talking. “They said that I was pretending when I couldn’t find my apartment in the building. But if I were a real gold digger, why would I take a man running around in the building for 15 minutes to find my door? They questioned why I would take a man home in the middle of the night. But it was my home, and he was Richard Liu! Who would have thought he would do that?”

‘The Price of Shame’

Ms. Liu said she felt powerless — that she couldn’t make the public see how scary it was for a 21-year-old to sit among a group of powerful middle-aged men, and how she couldn’t make the most powerful among them leave her alone. Ms. Liu couldn’t make them see how creepy it was that a 45-year-old billionaire, who mingled with the Davos elite, followed a young woman around an apartment building that mostly housed students. She was angry at Mr. Liu’s two assistants and the other executives at the dinner: She saw them as complicit, but barely any public outrage had been directed at them.

She continues to hide in her apartment with her two Yorkshire terriers, waiting for developments in her lawsuit against Mr. Liu. Her parents are working in China. Her boyfriend has had visa trouble and can’t visit. Ms. Liu uses a pseudonym when ordering takeout food and Ubers, for fear that she’ll encounter a Chinese person who recognizes her name.

During our long conversation, I asked Ms. Liu whether she thought her experience was similar to that of Monica Lewinsky. “Of course not,” she said quickly. “I would never sleep with a married man voluntarily.” A week later, I sent her a link to Ms. Lewinsky’s TED Talk, titled “The Price of Shame,” in which she argues for a more compassionate social-media environment. “Public shaming as a blood sport has to stop,” Ms. Lewinsky says.

“We’re so similar!” Ms. Liu told me a day later. “I truly admire her that after all that, she can still live a positive life. Extraordinary!” Then she added, “I’m such a loser that I don’t even dare to read the police report.”

But Ms. Liu has, she said, turned out to be more resilient than she at first expected. True, she said, she suffers from PTSD and is sometimes suicidal. But she’s determined to pursue the case. She said she would not settle, because she would never agree to signing a nondisclosure agreement. If she won, she said, she would donate all the money to Chinese feminists who have been supportive of her — except for $1,000, which she would keep for herself.

She spent money on a flight to New York to find a lawyer. And she wants compensation, she said, for the clothes and bedsheets that were destroyed.

“If I had known I could endure so much,” she said. “I would not have hesitated about reporting to the police.”

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2420: May 30th 2020 at 7:58:36 PM

The Chinese are big on the whole "Don't dress like that then" victim blaming thing.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on May 30th 2020 at 7:58:45 AM

eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#2421: May 30th 2020 at 8:09:04 PM

Authoritarian systems in general are pretty big on the just world fallacy. If you get into trouble, well, it's your own fault for seeking it out.

It's the reason the Li Wenliang case ended up being the one to rouse public outrage - he wasn't one of the troublemaker "dissident" types who had it coming, he's just a regular health worker doing his job. You're only going to accept the system as-is so long as you can convince yourself that the leopards aren't going to eat your face.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2422: May 31st 2020 at 6:21:39 PM

The problem here is that a second cold war would be more dangerous than the first one, considering that there are thousands of deaths due to the coronavirus, and the U.S. is going to make sure, one way or another, that China pays somehow for all this, which leads us to an even more dangerous situation than in the first cold war, where the main problem was just from a very ideological nature (excluding proxy wars, of course).

I would say you're right for the wrong reasons. It's not that the participants of the original Cold War had less reason to hate each other. Rather, the problem is that there is much more at stake.

The sole risk of the original Cold War was nuclear warfare, which wasn't a non-issue but was constrained by MAD and thus was manageable (if terrifying). But with us, we have international issues such as Climate Change which cannot be managed in the same way. Thus a new Cold War would be extremely destructive, not because its participants have more reason to hate each other (they don't, it's about the same if not less) but rather because it would stop essential cooperation.

It must be avoided, I dearly hope Biden will be rational enough to understand that.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on May 31st 2020 at 6:30:21 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
eagleoftheninth In the name of being honest from the Street without Joy Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
In the name of being honest
#2423: May 31st 2020 at 11:10:00 PM

The US and the Soviet Union both worked together on smallpox eradication at the height of the Cold War.

Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2425: Jun 1st 2020 at 10:09:04 AM

[up][up]True, but Cold Wars by their very nature make cooperation harder. And we can't afford that with Climate Change looming over the horizon.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Total posts: 5,295
Top