Netflix Daredevil

Wilson Fisk trying to save Daredevil.

Matt was halucinating Fisk due to his compromised mental state. It seemed pretty clear to me.

Sure, I figured that could be the case, but the show never addresses it. He just kinda hallucinates the guy for most of the season, then suddenly drops, and no explanation for that is ever given. It never coincides with anything in the story, it just happens, and then suddenly stops happening, for no apparent reason.

That's pretty cool.

Was there ever an Elseworlds where a young Wilson Fisk put on a devil costume to fight crime? And everyone recognized him straight away, because, well...

I assumed it was less a psychotic hallucination and more Matt playing out a conversation with Kingpin in his head. Not like the Kilgrave from Jessica Jones S2.

He also hallucinates Jack Murdock at one point, but in both cases I figured it was a more imagetic way to show Matt struggling with his consciousness in varied ways (with his dark side via Fisk and with his memory of his father via Jack Murdock). I don't think he was literally talking to the abject nothing or someone would have noticed it during his brief stint trying to infiltrate Fisk's building, where he occasionally chats with his vision of Fisk mere meters away from regular people.

Myself I didn't have a problem with it. It made for some great scenes and allowed Matt to struggle with his inner thoughts in a more imagetic way rather than just Charlie Cox in silent brooding.

I also thought it concluded well with Matt killing his Fisk vision with his bare hands, representing how he proverbially "let the Devil out" and repressed his struggles with his conscience from that point onwards.

I get that that's what they were going for, but with something like that I think they needed really strong dialogue for a couple of stage actors to sink their teeth into, and I don't think they had it.

The reason I favour the whole fugue state idea is not just for the added excuse for Matt to talk to Fisk, but also for a justification to stumble into some random fights and do some off-kilter street-level heroism with the spectre of the Kingpin looking on. It just feels like they could have done more with the idea if they were going to do it, because as a device in superhero storytelling it feels pretty played out at this point.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 9th 2019 at 8:37:23 AM

For instance in episode 5, they could've shown Matt getting into these sorts of fights after escaping from the cab ('cause he did something similar in "Born Again"), rather than the stageplay of Dex's backstory.

I wouldn't have removed Dex's basckstory stageplay, to be honest. It didn't bother me all that much. I do think it could have been trimmed down so as to not reiterate the exact same point over and over again, but it doesn't need to be outright removed. It was nice to watch.

The Dex backstory stageplay is my favorite part of the season.

I mean, I do get they're basically doing a modified spin on Misty Knight's "Misty-vision" with Fisk putting all this together in his head, by going through the files. He wasn't just reading information, he was putting things together in a way that no one else quite had. Though it did drag out a bit.

(On a somewhat off-topic note, since that's from episode 5, I reiterate a somewhat related point from that episode I brought up a few pages back: I didn't think it was the right time to have Fisk be ruining Matt Murdock's life when Matt Murdock has no life left to ruin and is already at rock bottom. I still feel Foggy would've been a better target in this situation, since Foggy getting hurt could be done in such a way as to bring Matt out of hiding, beyond just the whole thing with Theo's fraud at the butcher shop and the bank loan. Fisk could've gotten Foggy and/or Marci disbarred, had the butcher shop shut down, and/or forced Matt into an ultimatum along the lines of "I will leave Foggy and Karen alone if you forfeit being Daredevil".

Speaking of Foggy, realistically there should have been way more media coverage of his DA campaign. Would've been nice to see Foggy handling the press a bit (which is a skill of his in the comics, and one that I absolutely don't understand why the writers didn't give us, given that across seasons 2 and 3, they came up with a lot of contrived scenarios where they could have had Foggy verbally throw down with reporters). During Frank's trial in season 2, there were quite a number of scenes of Foggy and Karen approaching reporters but then walking away or not being accosted by them. In season 3, we should have gotten things like Foggy being asked about his affiliation with Daredevil and Luke Cage, or being asked to comment on his stances on vigilantism.)

I quite like that moment, but my favorite is still the talk between Karen and Fisk. One of the few times I liked Karen's character.

I liked seeing her backstory, but I've always been a Karen fan.

I also liked the concept of the little stageplay of Dex's life, but it's another thing that just never quite came together for me. Seems like the kind of thing where I might see it again one day and it could work better, though. Gotta let these things hit you the right way sometimes.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 9th 2019 at 8:37:01 AM

The stageplay is nice, but I think it overstays it's welcome. It could have been a bit more polished. It took way too long to make one single point about Dex.

I'm not that great of a fan of Karen's backstory, to be honest. It's nice to get context on her, but, again, I feel it takes too large a chunk of the episode it's in.

I liked Karen's backstory but it and the episode title tried so hard to make us think Karen was gonna die when we all knew what was really gonna happen.

I think the only thing lacking in the Karen meets Fisk scene is the way it ends. Rather than it end with Fisk primal screaming and then the FBI guys and Foggy coming in to remove Karen, which felt a little underwhelming, I would do this: Karen reveals she killed Wesley, Fisk snaps and begins choking Karen. Then Matt shows up and attacks Fisk, getting him to let go of Karen. A brawl breaks out between Fisk and Matt, which Matt, due to being distracted by Fisk laying hands on Karen, loses. Then his FBI guards come in and remove Matt and Karen, and they escape after beating up Waller and Lim in the elevator.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 5th 2019 at 8:19:33 AM

That seems overly elaborate and a tad contrived. It'd require the FBI guys displaying a ridiculous amount of incompetence to justify it, and for Fisk to be inordinately merciful so as to not batter Karen with his bare fists or snap her neck, plus Matt would have to basically teleport inside the room since its absurdly impregnable. I much prefer what we actually had.

I liked Karen one-upping Fisk verbally and not being rescued by Daredevil, but rather thwarted by Foggy. Although given what we see of Fisk's hold on the hotel and FBI, it doesn't seem like her plan would've worked, but honestly I have more criticisms about how far-reaching Fisk's control is than I do of how the scene itself was written. It's a disturbing plan, but much more interesting to me if it could have worked.

I was more along the lines of Matt entering through the secret bunker, going up the stairs, then dropping in.

As for what would've happened if no one had come to intervene, well, I’m not even sure if it would have been in-character for Fisk to beat up Karen. Yes, we've seen him order hits on women (Karen, Elena, Julie) but he's not physically present for their deaths in any of those cases. And I doubt the writers would have allowed Karen to get the same beating as Fisk gave to Matt.

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 5th 2019 at 9:46:14 AM

Just my personal take since we haven't really seen that happen, but I don't really see Fisk having those qualms. And I think Karen killing Wesley would have overridden any doubts he might have had even if he did.

I don't think the show would have shown Karen's grisly beating or anything either, but I also don't think anyone's saying that was ever really on the table.

Edited by Unsung on Jan 5th 2019 at 8:55:13 AM

I'll say this, if Matt had been the one to intervene, it would've given us another Matt vs. Fisk fight that would've given us some interesting fight dynamics. I feel Matt would fight harder, but would also be very vulnerable. The last time he fought Fisk in this black PJ garb, he lost badly (and had already been horribly maimed by Nobu). I think with Karen present, his senses would be split between fighting Fisk and making sure Karen was okay.

Double posting here, but I suppose the one logistical issue if Matt had been Karen's savior in her scene with Fisk, is that Karen would never get to willingly tell Matt about Wesley, and instead, it would be that she told him because she was forced to by circumstances, or he'd overhear it while in Fisk's bedroom (like when he later overhears Sister Maggie's prayer).

As for if no one had intervened, well, Fisk IS a very emotions-motivated person to the extremes of how he reacts impulsively when angry. BUT he also maintains control over the plans he has to the nth degree. If he didn't kill Karen, just attack her, I wonder if she would end up getting arrested. That is what I thought was happening at first when the FBI guards burst in the room.

@Unsung: "It's a disturbing plan, but much more interesting to me if it could have worked." I think if Karen's plan had worked, it would've been interesting to see how Matt and Foggy would've reacted. I think they'd be tortured by guilt. Foggy because he was there and couldn't save her and Matt because he thinks his example of physical self sacrifice for the greater good influenced Karen's decision.

I don't know, Karen has enough instances of being a damsel in distress for Matt to save. Would you really need to add another one to the mix?

Well it would certainly have been a more intense scene, in my opinion, if Matt had shown up again. It would put him and Karen in more danger, and maybe allow for them to have a one-sided Curb-Stomp Battle that recreated what was the originally the lead-in to the cab drowning in "Born Again" (Matt confronting Fisk, Fisk beating him to a pulp). The emotions would have been high for Matt and Karen and it would've allowed for another emotional scene for these two. (Which would be great because Matt's relationships with Karen and Foggy never got a chance to breathe in season 3. They never got any such thing as quiet time to just be together, and feel how much they still care about each other. The final happy scene with all of them together was rushed into just a little, without enough of a transition from the high tension of the earlier stuff.)

Edited by dmcreif on Jan 9th 2019 at 1:51:16 PM

Fisk and Matt fighting again would have been good, but the trade-off is several hundred logic leaps, the loss of Karen's agency and a moment that really would derail the plot of the entire season because of its rammifications.

Generally speaking, I also much preferred the fact Fisk and Murdock only squared off in the end, because it served to have a entire season's worth to stew and build up their mutual hatred. Matt finally coming face-to-face with Fisk and both screaming in incoherent rage at each other is the kind of moment that is only possible with that kind of build-up.