Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

And, like Star Trek, they seem to be opposed to the far end of that - Miranda is a bit unique and an oddity, for example. Full on genetic engineering seems to still be frowned upon (beyond minor upgrades)

The Citadel appears to have a very restrictive attitude - limited cybernetics research (partially driven by their anti AI fears); huge limits on genetic engineering and testing (perhaps sensible, given things like the genophage).

The salesman you meet in ME 1 talks about the limited gene upgrades Alliance marines get and the various options - so it exists but still seems fairly... slow considering the distance.

Now, how much of this is subtle Reaper indoctrination (The Citadel council being steered to more technologically regressive ideals) or Asari driven (We know they hoarded the knowledge of the Thessia beacon and enforced rules about other races having to declare Prothean finds to all) is up for debate.

So, the species are advanced, and the Codex states that there have been leaps and bounds. The tech on display shows that things are very advanced in many areas, but the human-self seems relatively unchanged. A lot of that is down to the anti AI attitudes it seems.

Hey wait a minute. Wouldn't Synthesis count as transhumanism? And everyone seems to hate it because: 1) Shepard forces Organics to merge with Synthetics against their will and 2) It's the creator's preferred ending supposedly.

This wouldn't really jive with the idea ME is anti-transhumanism.

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 7th 2019 at 12:55:33 PM

Combination of 1, 2, and 3. not introducing giant worldchanging new lore in the last 5 minutes of your franchise is kind of writing 101.

Synthesis is garbage because when you clearly establish that mass relays are used to create corridors of near-zero mass for easy faster-than-light travel, you need something more to explain why they can also alter reality to cyborgize organics and meatify synthetics to all parts of the galaxy than "well it was never shown that they couldn't".

It's more that Synthesis doesn't "improve" - it doesn't really explain WHAT it is. And leads to plot holes like "Hey, that Brute, which is made up of two huskified, entirely different species, is that now a single sentient entity or a mish mash? What about the Cannibals, which are made from MULTIPLE batarians. Or the Praetorians or Heavy Husks?"

Do the husks get their memories back? Are they trapped in zombie bodies? For the other races it makes everyone cyborgs... or does it make robots "alive"?

It's SPACE MAGIC in the most unsatisfying way. Maybe the devs like it because they had a whole bunch of context and notes that explain it better... or whole chats with each other. But we, the audience, don't have that.

So, the series is very much about the status quo, not veering too far away from "safe" - and the attempts at "Transhumanism" are framed in horrifying ways. The Reapers are essentially a horrible singularity; cyborgs are actually zombies; AI will murder you as soon as it gets a chance... or it secretly wishes it was a "real boy". And isn't worthy until it becomes basically just a version of human.

Honestly, I find it very hard to envision what Synthesis actually entails. Obviously if we try to apply a 'realistic' interpretation of science the idea's kind of mad. Shepard's 'organic essence' will be broken down and dispersed across the galaxy — and this will somehow alter every organic race in some sort of way that'll unite synthetic lifeforms and organics.

But that's not really where I have trouble gripping with the idea. This is fiction, after all; I don't necessarily need a solution that's hard science. But really, I genuinely have no idea what that's supposed to mean on all but the most abstract level, and honestly on that level I'd challenge whether the concept actually makes sense — not just, is it right, but whether it makes sense as a coherent idea.

So, what is established: it involves altering DNA, it looks like. I think it'll, in some way, integrate technology into organics. But that's very vague. Will it make humans grow metal or computery bits or something? 'Thanks, Shepard', says EDI, 'my arm is sort of fleshy now. I am alive.' Apparently we see everyone has glowy green eyes, whatever conclusion you want to draw from that. But we see, there are still krogan around, there are still salarians — as an example, it hasn't eroded any species barrier, nor blurred the distinction between man and geth. I don't really see why organic creatures wouldn't still just draw a line between themselves and artificial life they create in future. What does 'synthetic' mean in this context, exactly?

Does it alter consciousness in some way? I feel like it seems like it'd have to for what the ending wants to imply.

I think the Synthesis ending as depicted is, in its intent, transhumanist in some way. It talks of surpassing mortality itself, ascending to yet higher ways of existing. Obviously you can question whether it's the 'best', or rather most endorsed, ending: there are some arguments for why you might draw that conclusion from the game design, like it being the hardest ending to achieve.^note As a counter and an example of this sort of thinking, you can make similar arguments, certainly I've seen them, of Destroy being the 'best' and ergo endorsed decision because, at the highest EMS, Shepard can make it out alive. But in practice it's vague and generic in that message.

Edited by Lavaeolus on Aug 13th 2019 at 5:33:52 PM

I remember the Shamus Young retrospective pointing out that Aria seems like someone that the writer decided was the coolest character on the Citadel - er, on Omega - and wrote her assuming that of course audience will also find her the same way, this badass queen bitch of the Omega underworld.

Her appearance in 3 only serves to heighten this, as she has a direct line to the asari Councilor, and at least both Blood Pack and Blue Suns merc reps treat you as her servant who she sends to do her bidding.

I think when I played 3 the first time, I had enough trust in the author to find the setting of 2 "cool" and so didn't really mind it too much, but now, being thoroughly jaded about most of 2's writing decisions, it's the other way around and I'm just seeing Sue-ish behavior in everyone the writers choose to play up other than Shepard (obviously because Shep's the player character).

At least there's a couple of actual choices in her Citadel sidequests.

I'm pretty sure most people do like Aria. The writers deciding who will be cool or not is...their job? Why do you think Garrus is far and away the most popular companion? Because they decided he was the coolest and would be Shepard's bro to end all bros.

Aria shows you why Inquisition and Andromeda and the fucking new garbage engine BW is using sucks so much. Everything feels lifeless. In ME 2 Aria's introduction as beautifully cinematic with great camera work and visuals, You don't have to like her because even if you think she's just a gangster with an inflated sense of self-worth than this melodramatic introduction still works wonderfully. With these shit new games everyone is like an action figure that you waved around to indicate motion and talking when growing up.

I remember I tried reading Young's reviews. Reminded me abit of me before I played Mass Effect. I was like everybody loves 2 but what about 1 and 3? Nobody talks about them apart from memes about elevators or the worst ending of all time. Surely they are better than they are given credit for? Boy was I wrong. The popular opinion is right on the money with 2 being far and away better than 1 or 3 and 1 b eing generic as hell with only elevators making it worth remembering.

And before I actually played any BW game at all I was told to play ME instead of Dragon Age because "Dragon Age is just generic fantasy." Ha! The Qunari and Dwarves are more fleshed out and better written races and societies than anything in all 4 ME games.

Edited by Nikkolas on Aug 8th 2019 at 12:21:32 PM

I see no reason why Aria shouldn't have a direct line to the Asari Councilor. We've known the Citadel Council is a corrupt organization from the beginning.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

"The writers deciding who will be cool or not is...their job? " Not so. Case in point. Really more of a story collapse issue than anything. You can of course introduce characters than can boss Shepard around by dint of how capital-I-Important they are. They just need to be more important than some local crime boss from out in the boonies.

Also, pretty sure the reason Garrus is one of the most popular companions in 2 is because a lot of 2's companions just didn't have enough going for them to overcome the additional popularity boost from his status as one of your old team from 1. He certainly didn't come across as being that special in 1; if I wanted shooting I'd take Wrex, and if I wanted tech I'd take Tali.

"We've known the Citadel Council is a corrupt organization from the beginning." Did we? ME 1 seems to treat them as the legitimate governing body over much of the Milky Way, with legitimate arguments both for and against the idea that they were keeping humanity down. Maybe there were some political shadiness, but I don't recall it being any more than can be expected from any fictional (or real-life) government. Upon recollection, the Systems Alliance gets more of it than the Council does, what with the rushed biotic training camps and the Cerberus black ops and the congresscritters who ignore the plight of the biotics and that one Renegade-specific mission where Hackett sends you to deal with the pirate boss hoping that you would gun your way through it.

Edited by PRC4Eva on Aug 9th 2019 at 9:57:52 AM

I remember in Mass Effect 3 EDE says that anyone without Jeff's emotional attachment to the ship would have been unlikely to unshackle her in the collector attack. To be honest I think their overstating things a bit, basic self-preservation likely would have occurred.

One of the earliest things I remember from establishing the Citadel Council was the Asari ambassador who has you murder her sister in order to cover up her existence. That was also accompanied by the fact that Specters were lawless assassins in their direct employ and the fact that the Volus as well as Hanar are just puppet states. There was also the favor trading, brokering, and blackmail going on with the Consort. My take on the Citadel Council was that Ashley's read of them was accurate.

It's a group dedicated to preserving its own power and hegemony over the galaxy, fuck everyone else.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

The "legitimacy" is reinforced by the fact you only really see the Presidium and the nicer part of the Wards - you don't go deep into the industrial areas until ME 2. So you see the Crystal Spires and Togas part.

And even the insalubrious bits are done in the light, so it still just feels... political, not shady.

That's an ambassador, though, not the Council itself.

I'm pretty sure most legitimate governments IRL has some Spectre-esque black ops personnel. The Spectres' independent lawless status can also come back to bite them if they get in too deep, as the Council might also just choose not to come save them (since the whole point of deploying a Spectre is discretion and avoiding war to start with). As for the non-Council races, there were all various reasons why they weren't on the Council. At the end of the day, political power come from the barrel of a gun, and all of them are unsuited for the military responsibilities of being a Council race as opposed to the humans. Weak nations have no diplomacy, after all.

Well, yes, but I think Ashley's read of them was more just normal "typical dirty politicos who don't really care about the well-being of the little guys as long as they have power" talk.

Isn't that all governing bodies?

Yeah, but as you said, it feels like normal politics that most if not all legitimate governments engage in. The industrial areas from 2 don't really strike me as anything worse than what we might expect IRL, either.

My understanding is that there's no de jure above-the-law agency in the US at least. Though to be fair, "de jure" are the key words there. The CIA, for example, actually has a lot of rules (such as rules against torture), though they can break them and in practice get away with it some percentage of the time depending on severity and visibility.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

Spectres literally only exist to give you an excuse to behave like a video game protagonist. It’s an attempt at Gameplay and Story Integration that doesn’t hold up under close scrutiny.

"no de jure above-the-law agency" Well, of course not; that would be a contradiction in terms. Still, as Michael Westen points out, if covert operations were legal, they wouldn't have to be covert.

"Spectres exist solely to justify RPG player character shenanigans" Technically true, but Mass Effect went a bit above and beyond in terms of justifying why you the player got to do this why they could easily just have gone with "you're a space cop with a do-whatever-you-want-and-get-away-with-it badge, have fun." It stands no less to scrutiny than the base premise of Goldeneye or KOTOR.

They didn't really go above and beyond that. That's pretty much exactly how Spectres are described, and the only notable thing about it is that you don't start the game with that status.

I don't follow your comparisons to Goldeneye and KOTOR, and they feel shoehorned in here.

Basically, the Citadel is a shady as shit The Empire but it's hard to top real life The Empire examples.

Certainly, it means they don't deserve any special consideration or protection.

Which is why any proper Shepherd sees a chance to take out the Council and does.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

Ummm, no. That’s not even remotely appropriate use of the trope.

I disagree.

:)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 12th 2019 at 9:48:09 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

How is the Council even remotely near being The Empire? Sure, they're shady and corrupt, but if that's all it took to be an Empire that'd be every single ruling body in the galaxy.

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.

I mean, isn't Council more of Space UN that is bit more independent governing body? They kinda seems to be lower in status to their respective homeworld's ruling bodies

Edited by SpookyMask on Aug 12th 2019 at 9:53:57 PM

opens up the empire page

"The Empire's defining Grand Ambition is World (Or Interstellar/Galactic/Universal) Domination. Amassing The Evil Army, it sets out to conquer all of its neighbours and be the sole superpower by force of arms." -Hold up

How is that the council, exactly ?

I'm not three lines deep in the trope page and that already has nothing to do with the council. If I had to list every thing that doesn't match up to the trope description I'd be here for the day.

Edited by Yumil on Aug 13th 2019 at 10:35:05 AM

"when you stare too long into the abyss, Xehanort takes advantage of the distraction to break into your house and steal all your shit."

They're closer to a Cartel if you want "evil" - but they're just a messy bureaucracy that has rot inside it, due to their size. They have a large scale peacekeeping force that is much more proactive than real world analogues.

HOWEVER, the Councillors are appointed by member states and have no real authority over them. Look at the Turian Councillor and his attitude to the Primarch.

They issue broad edicts that govern rules, more like the EU - and member states seem to have flexibility to work around those edicts (The Asari republics, for example, seem very independent of the Council overall) and we have examples where the Council tolerates elements not within its bounds - Noveria, Ilium, Omega. Some of that is down to self-interest (The corporate worlds and trade hubs) and geography.

They hold no aspiration at domination - they are terrified of opposing even the BATARIANS! Their chief weapons are commerce and diplomacy. And like any large bureaucracy, it's unsurprising that certain echelons have corruption. Hell, the Alliance has it's own issues - look at how the corpses of fallen soldiers are treated - being held for experimentation (Beyond a normal autopsy).

Aria is a mobster with connections to government - and with a) how long lived the Asari are and b) how incestuous their governments appear to be in terms of hegemonic attitudes and power preservation that doesn't seem surprising. Hell, Liara becomes a practical galactic power by herself - and has a few people in her own pocket, but she's not exactly evil either.

I think probably the fact the Council rules over the entirety of the galaxy's space is probably the big thing. Everyone including the Batarians and Quarians are subject to their decrees that can and do utterly crush their economies or lives.

Earth has to play the game or be left behind.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.