Oh, bother.
If the guy crosses the same boundaries with other men, then it might be an autism issue. If he only does this with women, it is probably a “he does not respect women” issue.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Depends on what you mean by "same boundaries." Depending on the local culture, the exact same behavior can be considered unremarkable with a same gender/same orientation individual, but become inappropriate because the other person is opposite gender/orientation.
Edited by DeMarquis on Feb 25th 2021 at 10:35:00 AM
Oh, bother.
Starting awkward conversations about how pretty the other person is seems inappropriate no matter the gender.
Disgusted, but not surprised
And yet young men keep doing it. So if you were on the spectrum, and trying to teach yourself how to act by observing the other guys around you, and copying them (a very common pattern), you can see how a mistake would be made. The difference is that neuro-typical men can just look at the other person's facial expression and tell they have made a mistake (if they want to), while someone on the spectrum has a much harder time doing that.
I'm not making excuses, I'm just pointing out the challenges.
A procrastination in of itself
It’s not an either or, a person could mirror other men because of their autism, and that mirroring could result in then not respecting women (because the men they mirrored off don’t).
Edited by Silasw on Feb 26th 2021 at 1:06:56 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
That's actually what I'm trying to say. Such men can be corrected, but it requires a different sort of approach than it would a neurotypical one.
Oh, bother.
How would it be different. No, seriously. How would one correct an autistic person acting that way, and would it really be different from the way one would correct that behavior in a neurotypical person.
Edited by M84 on Feb 27th 2021 at 12:57:05 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
For context, I met this guy one time while ridesharing - he wasn't someone I knew. I have no idea if this was typical for him or not. Also, that was just one awkward conversation starter. The others were unrelated types of awkward.
I understand that the conversation has become more general than this one specific instance, but I want to make that clear.
Edited by SapphireBlue on Feb 26th 2021 at 9:07:39 AM
Oh, bother.
Okay a complete stranger did that? That is honestly super creepy.
Edited by M84 on Feb 27th 2021 at 1:21:59 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Yeah. Complete stranger.
A procrastination in of itself
Direct instructional statements often will work with an autistic person where they wouldn't work with a neurotypical person. If someone genuinely doesn’t realise that what they’re doing is socially inappropriate then saying “what you’re doing is socially inappropriate” can work, indeed it can be very helpful for them.
Obviously nobody is under any obligation to teach such people (well, the parental figures and maybe actual teachers they have), but it can also be the easiest way to get them to stop doing a thing that’s making one uncomfortable.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oh, bother.
It'd be more effective if it did come from parental figures and teachers, since these are presumably people they already respect.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Yeah, I think the crucially important thing here is that autistic people often don't know when they're being socially inappropriate. Allistic people generally know but either don't care or think it shouldn't be inappropriate.
Though granted, it is more complicated than that. I've certainly encountered some genuinely bigoted autistic people.
A Conceptual Analysis of Autistic Masking
. A very long research paper about autistic people and masking. Might be some interesting things in there. Haven't finished reading it yet.
Already, this researcher gets it.
Masking with romantic partners?! That can't be healthy. A relationship based on one person pretending to be something they're not and hiding their "abnormal" traits is one that'll eventually end in disaster. Maybe autistics should focus on dating other autistics, when possible.
Edited by BonsaiForest on Feb 27th 2021 at 7:09:40 AM
Some autistic people mask from themselves, as a way of being in denial about their condition.
A procrastination in of itself
I’d love to see some studies done on the difference between masking and presenting. I’ve never felt that I’m hiding my oddness from the world, I’m simply ensuring that I manifest it in the best way possible for the situation I’m in.
I can’t be the only person who doesn’t feel like they’re hiding themselves, but clearly many autistic people do feel that way, so what’s the differential? Is it simply that I was never taught to be normal, just to not hurt and/or upset people? Conforming to norms is often how one does the later, but it’s not always necessary.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm curious about that too. Your attitude sounds pretty similar to mine. I think there's overlap between that and masking, but they're not entirely the same.
Edited by SapphireBlue on Mar 2nd 2021 at 1:13:19 AM
An article, Puberty and autism: an unexplored transition.
There's a surprising number of topics to talk about regarding autism and adolescence.
Inklings of this discrepancy began to show up decades ago. In 1970, psychiatrists at Maudsley Hospital in London, England found that about half of the autistic individuals who made the most progress during treatment did not develop key social and interpersonal skills during adolescence; they also noted that about a quarter of those teenagers developed epilepsy. In 1982, Swedish researchers described five autistic teenagers whose abilities declined or autism traits became more severe after the onset of puberty.
A large subset of autistic teenagers have their autism traits intensify, instead of developing key social skills? Later, it's said that the percentage of autistic teenagers with epilepsy is double that of the percentage of autistic children!
Feelings of not belonging contribute to the high prevalence of depression and anxiety among autistic adolescents. “Many have problems with social communication, and you’re setting the stage for potentially having a lot of possible psychological impact during adolescence,” says psychologist Blythe Corbett of Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. In a 2020 study in Minnesota, researchers found that 1,104 autistic teenagers and young adults were nearly three times as likely to have depression, and more than three times as likely to have anxiety, by the age of 30 as their non-autistic peers. And tragically, one 2013 study suggested that autistic children are 28 times as likely to plan or attempt suicide as their non-autistic peers are.
It's a long article, so be ready.
Justice eyes court reforms to serve those on autism spectrum
“The juvenile was nonresponsive. I asked him to look me in the eye and he wouldn’t,” Dougherty told The York Dispatch. “I was finding his behaviors as being incorrigible and borderline delinquent.”
It was Dougherty’s job that day as a Philadelphia court judge to determine the disposition of the young man’s case, he said, and thankfully the juvenile’s mother was a strong advocate for her son.
She explained that her son wasn’t being defiant — he had autism and couldn’t respond in the way the judge expected him to, he recalled.
“I had viewed myself as a forward-thinking judge and was pretty much humiliated and embarrassed,” the justice said.
Seeking change: Now, as a justice on Pennsylvania’s highest court, Dougherty wants to see change throughout the commonwealth that allows courts to better understand and serve those on the autism spectrum, he said, whether they be defendants, victims, witnesses, jurors or other participants.
I hope this spreads to other places as well. The idea of an autistic person in a courtroom having justice denied to them because their behaviors or presentation are misinterpreted is upsetting. Also, I notice he says he wants jurors to be well understood as well. I know someone who had a bad experience on jury duty, where the other jurors just didn't like her. Stuff like this needs to change, and some of that change is occurring in Pennsylvania.
Interesting coincidence of the week:
- Mutations in the X-chromosomal gene NLGN4X are linked to autism spectrum disorder.
- NLGN4X is in the so-called "pseudoautosomal" part of the X-chromosome; genes there are also present on the Y-chromosome in similar versions, in this case the Y-chromosomal counterpart is NLGN4Y.
- Antibodies produced by the maternal immune system against NLGN4Y are one proposed mechanism for the "fraternal birth order effect"; that's the observation that the likelihood of a boy being gay increases with the number of older brothers he has.
Another article about how autistics come across in the courtroom.
"If you ask most people how they determine if someone is not telling the truth, they will often refer to lack of eye contact or fidgety behavior," says lead author Dr Alliyza Lim.
It's good to see more attention being drawn towards this. Individually, issues affecting us seem to be addressed one by one.
Edited by BonsaiForest on Apr 1st 2021 at 11:24:40 AM
While I'm fortunate enough to have never been in a courtroom, I've definitely noticed similar behaviours on a different stage. Hopefully this is a problem that simple education could solve.
In hindsight, a lot of the bad experiences I’ve had were less because people were autistic and more because of other stuff. I’m trying to undo the internalized bias, and I’ve been thinking about trying some of the dedicated social groups again. Might help with that, and it’d be a good way to find friends.