Ambiguous Name: One For Sorrow Two For Joy

This trope is about magpies and things associated with them, such as theft and bad luck. However, the name "One for Sorrow, Two for Joy" is obscure in my opinion; without prior familiarity, one wouldn't suspect that magpies are involved. In the proposed but later discarded trope "Thieving Magpie" [1], Snicka stated, "...magpies tend to have Sticky Fingers...," and Dalillama added, "Rooks do as well, in folklore, fiction, and real life. In some dialects of English a 'rookery' is either a place where rooks nest, or a crime-ridden slum, especially one with large numbers of pickpockets. One for Sorrow, Two for Joy is renamed, Magpies And Rooks might be good. Compare to Ravens and Crows."

I propose we change the trope name "One for Sorrow, Two for Joy" to Dalillama's suggestion of "Magpies and Rooks." What do others think?

edited 1st Jan '14 7:00:55 PM by SciFiMs

Wow, where on earth did that name crawl out of? I thought this was about pulling leaves off a daisy.

The name comes from old rhymes about magpies.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060727160242AAJMuTm

which, evidently, very few people knows about.

Unless you're British.

If the trope isn't purely about the rhyme (which it doesn't appear to be, upon inspection), then the current name is misleading.

This trope as-is is "magpies". That's not a trope.

Thanks to all who posted. Septimus, this trope is not just about magpies per se. It's about magpies and their associations, such as a predilection for thievery. I think a new name would be really helpful.

edited 2nd Jan '14 4:20:48 AM by SciFiMs

By the way, are there any specific themes, pattern or symbolism that's linked with Magpies that can be salvaged from this? Like their thieving tendencies or anything? Because, as mentioned in , "this work features magpies" is not exactly a trope.

Yes, Adeptrogue, this trope is not about magpies in and of themselves, but about magpies and their associations, such as thievery or bad luck. The trope description obviously needs a couple of tweaks, [edit] which I've now done.

edited 2nd Jan '14 4:53:55 AM by SciFiMs

I am preoccupied about the examples, though - how many of them are just "magpies", without any overarching significance? Seems like a lot to me.

I can see two potential tropes here:

1. Thieving Magpie: Magpies, rooks, and by extension other corvids have a reputation for Sticky Fingers and a love of shiny things. This would be a subtrope of Animal Stereotypes.
2. One For Sorrow, Two For Joy: Magpies are a source of superstition, with various rituals and rhymes being associated with this.

There are also several examples of "some magpies show up", which should be cut.

The second one can be a trope with this same name, but the first seven lines of the poem should be used as the page quote to explain the name.

I'd rather not have a trope about Magpies that lacks the word "Magpie" somewhere in the title.

How about Counting Crows?

^^^ I saw the rhyme on the Yahoo QA link and it still doesn't explain the name. To me, it's a good example of when you shouldn't name tropes after their own examples.

edited 2nd Jan '14 11:47:03 AM by Stratadrake

@11: I'm guessing that the lack of examples and misuse is caused by the overly ambiguous name and the fact that the description is not much more than a roundabout rambling about magpies.

I agree. I actually learnt that rhyme in my pre-school/elementary school and this is the first time I realized it was talking about magpies.

edited 2nd Jan '14 6:02:58 PM by theAdeptrogue

@johnnye: I can see two potential tropes here: 1. Thieving Magpie: Magpies, rooks, and by extension other corvids have a reputation for Sticky Fingers and a love of shiny things. This would be a subtrope of Animal Stereotypes. 2. One For Sorrow, Two For Joy: Magpies are a source of superstition, with various rituals and rhymes being associated with this. There are also several examples of "some magpies show up", which should be cut.

^After reading all the replies here and re-reading the trope, I’m coming around to most of what you’re saying. I absolutely agree with your potential "Thieving Magpie" trope and your statement about “some magpies show up” (and those definitely should be cut).

I also agree that there’s a second possible trope and like your later renaming suggestion of "Counting Crows." However, I think this second trope needs a new description: for starters (and I have no problem if this undergoes a lot of editing), I would go with something like, “…the act of predicting (or the ability to predict) the future based on how many magpies, or other corvids such as crows, you count. This trope is based on various versions of a British nursery rhyme on this theme; typically in these, one magpie is associated with bad luck or sorrow.”

In addition, perhaps as crazysamaritan suggests, even for a renamed trope, “…the first seven lines of the poem should be used as the page quote to explain the name,” although some versions will be better than others, and we should give the choice of version some thought.

edited 2nd Jan '14 7:04:57 PM by SciFiMs

I was only being tongue-in-cheek about naming it Counting Crows, since that's the name of a band (named in reference to the rhyme, I presume). Some sort of variation or pun on the band name would be alright though. Counting Magpies, for want of a better idea.

Alternatively, Magpie Rhyme.

As for the version to use in the quote, it's mentioned a couple of times on the page that Popcultural Osmosis has cemented the one used on the TV show Magpie as standard, so that seems as good a choice as any.

^ Those names explain themselves better but only as pertaining to the rhyme, not the trope.

Portentous Magpies? Magpies Of Fate?

Those are some good redirects, but they're underwhelming as main titles.

Johnnye, thanks for suggesting which rhyme version to use in the quote. Let's see if anyone has any comments about it. I wasn't familiar with it before I got involved in this discussion, so I'm happy to defer to the majority.

Re the possible "Thieving Magpie" trope, it now makes sense to have that as a separate discussion, so I've tried to restore it to YKTTW.

Re renaming this trope, will give it a think...

edited 5th Jan '14 6:30:30 AM by SciFiMs

Here are some possible new names, some better than others:

—Magpies as portents of the future

—Never mind the fortune teller, just count the magpies

—Never mind the mystic, just mark the magpies

—Never mind the mystic, just count the crows

—Never mind the mystic, just count the corvids

—Magpies: nature’s tarot cards

Will keep thinking of possible names...

edited 5th Jan '14 6:32:53 AM by SciFiMs

Think smaller. The six-word name it's got at the moment is already at the upper limits of acceptability. Two or three words is best.

I also don't think we want to be too heavy-handed with the idea of "predicting the future"; very few of the examples have magpies providing anything like a detailed prediction of the future, there's just a core idea that they provide a vague portent of good/bad luck to come.

Auspicious Magpies would be good if it weren't for the positive connotations that word has taken on, and Ominous Magpies by contrast makes them sound like omens of only bad luck.

That's why I like Portentous Magpies, as it does't really imply that they portend good or bad luck, just that they portend... something. It's not a very inspiring name, though, and we should keep brainstorming.