DC Comics General

So I bought Jimmy Olsen #1 and quite enjoyed it. I’m hoping we’ll get more little glimpses at the misadventures of Jimmy’s ancestors.

The very best, like no one ever was. Check out my Spider-Man fanfic here! [1]

Superman destroyed the equivalent of Darksied's soul completely, so yes, they can. And Deadman conversed with a couple souls during Moore's Swamp Thing run, so yes, they can think and feel just fine.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

Once again: Darkseid still exists. Superman singing a note of the pure multiverse in order to cancel out Darkseid's essence didn't destroy squat, because of the snapback nature of comic books, which even Grant Morrison knew.

At this point, your arguments are getting silly. Again: who cares? It was Darkseid, he was dead, Superman saved the universe, the end. At this point, you are arguing only semantics and it's about proving how "right" you are in saying Superman killed someone.

Honestly, you can twist Superman however you want, but a Superman who kills isn't interesting to me. Saying "But what if he was forced to kill" is basically giving in to the laziest plotlines — "But what if Superman went bad?" "What if Superman but evil?" "What if Superman killed?" It's trying to be edgy for the sake of edginess. Man of Steel had Superman kill and there was absolutely no point to it. There was no consequences, not even any follow up. A Superman that kills is boring.

Superman is a story about hope. Hope not just in a better tomorrow, but in a person who will never give up trying to save people.

You wanna talk about silliness? How about the idea that killing a genocidal invader who had no intention of stopping his murderous rampage is somehow antithetical to hope. This type of logic has literally resulted in innocent people being killed in real life.

You find a Superman who kills to be boring. I find that a Superman who understands that the universe won't bend to his will just because he wants something really bad but still does his best to be a good man to be more interesting.

For all the dumping on Snyder for use of Jesus imagery, it's Superman fans who deify the character the most.

Btw, you do realize that kkhohoho wasn't actually arguing that Superman should kill right?

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 7:24:34 AM

Because killing anyone is a last resort and is antithetical to what Superman's mission statement is. He believes that everyone can and should be saved. Now, he isn't always able to do it, but he always tries.

I could say the same about yours. At this point it's like you're bending over backwards to have Superman's actions match your own beliefs of what he should and should not do, regardless of what he actually did. And what he did was destroy a sentient being who could think and feel, which is the same as killing him. And again, he was only brought back due to another reboot.

And yes, that's exactly it. I wasn't arguing whether Superman should or should not kill at all. What I am arguing is that in that particular instance, he totally did.

Edited by kkhohoho on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:34:36 AM

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

Which now has me wondering when this alleged soul-deal took place? Because if was after Darksied was established as being beyond saving at this point, after multiple encounters with Superman and the League (and thus after multiple attempts from Superman), than I'd say that the last resort thing likely applies.

Of course I also wonder if Supes actually tried to appeal to Darksied's better half at all, because if not, than the above paragraph might be moot.

On a related note, I find the whole "Paragon wanting to save everyone but fails to save some" is a more realistic angle. After all for all of Superman's power, there is always going to be someone who dies in a disaster, someone that doesn't want to be saved and (rarely) conflicts he is gonna lose (I'd say that there'd also be someone who has to be put down to save the lives of multiple others, but that's getting into Utilitarianism and Theremin territory). He is but one (super)man after all.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Aug 19th 2019 at 7:40:53 AM

Which is what he was doing in Mo S. He tried to negotiate with Zod, he begged him to stop his rampage. It didn't work, so Superman did what had to be done and wasn't happy about it.

And considering he didn't turn into a murderous tyrant or develop a split personality, that's more hopeful and frankly more mature than most Superman stories dealing with him using lethal force tend to be.

Also, even Superman isn't so naive to think he can save everybody and in fact he's been of the opinion that even some people, like Luthor, are beyond redemption.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 7:46:23 AM

It happened in Final Crisis, by the end of it Darkseid's own existence was wrecking reality. So going all in and killing him was pretty justified.

Wake me up at your own risk.

Pretty much. It was an emergency situation.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

The issue with Man of Steel is more that, apart from the inherent boredom in "Superman must kill!" stories, it has no impact on his character. He's all smiles and jokes the next scene, and it has nothing to do with Batman's motivation in BVS. It might as well not have happened.

The execution of the pocket universe Kryptonians was a thing, but it also heavily impacted Superman as a person. He developed the Gangbuster personality because of it and exiled himself to space until he doubled down on his belief that all life was sacred, motivated to never kill again.

At least he didn't become a crazy murder fascist I guess.

This was all done a lot better in the DCAU where in STAS and JLU Darkseid becomes the one person Superman is actively okay with killing, leaving him to die twice.

Edited by RodimusMinor on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:06:01 AM

He totally didn't, though, because destroying Darkseid's essence only minorly inconvenienced him. If you want in-universe proof:

1. Currently, Darkseid is alive.
2. Per DC Rebirth, the New 52 was not a reboot, but rather due to manipulation from Doctor Manhattan, therefore all the characters pre-New 52 are the same characters post-New 52, just with some Manhattan manipulations, I guess?
3. Per Dark Knights: Metal, Final Crisis still happened in this timeline (Batman makes multiple references to Darkseid sending him back in time with his Omega Beams), therefore...
4. Superman destroying Darkseid's essence happened, but Darkseid still came back from that and, in fact, we've seen him return from the dead several times in new bodies.
5. So either Superman didn't destroy Darkseid's essence (and the soul is really indestructible) or he did and his essence was just put back together again (which means there's no such thing as permadeath).

Except there was no point to it. There was no follow up, there were no repercussions, nothing happened because of it at all. If you are going to explore what happens when Superman is forced to kill, then explore what happens. But Snyder didn't want to explore to aftermath, he just wanted to see Superman snap Zod's neck and that was it. That's what I object to.

That sounds like throwing together a bunch of vague technicalities rather than anything concrete. In that story itself, barring what came after, Darkseid was destroyed and effectively killed. And Superman was the one who did it.

And seeing as continuity Post Flashpoint was scattered to the four winds, it was in fact a reboot.

Edited by kkhohoho on Aug 19th 2019 at 10:21:35 AM

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

You just described comic books.

My point was, if you want to use in-universe reasoning to say he killed Darkseid, then I can use in-universe reasoning to show he didn't.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:26:39 AM

And then he killed Doomsday. And Darkseid.

Actually it was only once. And he didn't leave him to die so much as he was pulled away from the exploding planet by Bruce before Superman could make sure he killed Darkseid himself for real. I'm not sure if we can say the DCAU really explored what it was like to have a Superman kill when they never had a non-evil version of him do it. Bruce Timm if I recall even said he would have wanted to do something like the Zod killing in the series if he'd been allowed to.

By your logic the Joker didn't kill Jason Todd because he was resurrected later.

Both of those characters are beings that cannot really be killed. Doomsday came back, just like Darkseid did.

True, the Joker just maimed him to the point of death. He did kill Jason's mother, though.

Okay, at this point I cannot take you seriously.

He beat him to death with a Goddamned crowbar.

Doctor Who — Long Way Around: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13536044/1/Doctor-Who-Long-Way-Around

Superman did not know Doomsday could come back when he killed him the first time. And you've already had it pointed out to you why your excuse for the Darkseid thing is B.S.

To be clear, he beat him with a crowbar and then blew up both Jason and his mother with a bomb.

Not that alliterator would care about that but I look forward to how he'll rules lawyer around that.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:41:15 AM

November solicitations are in including the first issue of a gen:LOCK limited series, and two stand alone trades, focusing on a new Asian Green Lantern and and a young Wonder Woman.

Edited by Beatman1 on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:40:45 AM

Dude, they live in the DC universe. Death is completely reversible. If the Joker was put on trial for Jason Todd's murder, do you think anyone would convict him since they could call Jason Todd himself to the stand?

Like Superman once stated, "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

The time where Superman himself died fighting Doomsday? Yeah, totally counts.

If you're using in-universe logic, is there some reason why I can't use in-universe logic? Because otherwise, that's a double standard.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:43:20 AM

So why does anyone, in universe or out, have a conniption when superheroes kill someone? Where was this medium awareness when Superman and Batman were treating Diana like the Anti Christ for killing Max Lord?

Hell, Zod sort of came back in Bv S, so what is your issue with Superman killing him in Mo S?

The time where Superman himself died fighting Doomsday? Yeah, totally counts.

Seriously, your arguments just get more and more laughable the more you go on and makes me wonder if you even read these stories at all.

You haven't used in universe logic. You've used Insane Troll Logic.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:47:20 AM

Because someone is only alive when they are alive, not when they are dead. When Maxwell Lord was dead, everyone blamed Wonder Woman, but when he was alive, nobody cared that she killed him. (Because he was alive.) (And also made everyone forget who he was.)

Zod didn't come back; Doomsday was an abomination created from Zod's dead body. And I've already stated why I hate Superman killing in MOS multiple times. You can look it up.

Nice try, but that also never happened. Observe:

Superman: Doomsday...is he...is he...
Lois: You stopped him! You saved us all! Now relax until—

And that's when Superman dies.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:49:55 AM

I'm just going to repeat what you posted above.

Not once was this ever used to excuse Diana's killing of Max, not even when both Superman and Batman were aware of why she killed him. And the reason why everyone else was angry was because they thought Diana had killed him for no reason. they saw Diana kill Medusa on live t.v. a year earlier and no one protested. Not even Superman and Batman but like I said, their rule doesn't apply to non-humans or people who don't look human (I notice you've not addressed that).

You know what, I'll cop to the fact I was wrong on the dialogue exchange. But given that Superman himself is aware that he is dying, I find it difficult to believe that he didn't hear "you stopped him" and didn't think Doomsday was dead. Especially since his way of stopping him involved pile driving him from orbit.

Edited by windleopard on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:54:34 AM

I've already answered your question. "Because someone is only alive when they are alive, not when they are dead." When someone's dead, they're dead; when they come back to life, they are alive. You cannot prosecute someone for murder if the murder victim is alive (and yes, Diana was prosecuted for Maxwell Lord's murder before he came back to life).

Actually, it does apply, just inconsistently.

Edited by alliterator on Aug 19th 2019 at 8:54:25 AM