Undertale/Deltarune

Asgore is sympathetic in that he was stuck with two shitty options and didn’t want to commit to either.

Toriel is sympathetic for not wanting to deal with slow drip child murder while the kingdom died of sadness.

I feel like that ignores that Toriel could have done the same. It doesn't absolve Asgore of his guilt, but Toriel enforced the same half-assed fate on her people by trying to save Frisk and the other children - especially since in the end she still let them die. I'm not saying this makes her better or worse than Asgore, though. They're both parents who lost their only children, and it seems pretty clear that neither of them really moved past it.

The Toriel/Asgore situation is what inspired my old AU idea where the whole Underground decides to adopt and raise the human children instead of killing them.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Feb 24th 2020 at 6:08:01 AM

Personally, I didn't interpret what Toriel said to mean that it was the indecisiveness that she hated. The telling of their backstory makes it sound like she left Asgore as soon as he declared that he would kill humans and break the barrier. The fact that she tries to stop every human that comes through also implies she thinks saving them is more important than breaking the barrier.

I read it more as her saying that him not taking the more efficient option is proof that he knew what he was doing was wrong, and yet he was still doing it anyway because it would be hard to stand up to and disappoint his people after what he said. And the more humans he killed the harder it would be admit he was wrong, as that would make all the previous killing he did in vain. Basically if he did as Toriel said he would be a murderer but one who doing what he thought was right, but what he actually did made him a murderer and morally cowardly.

@Kuro: Right, but she does still let them go to be killed by the Underground. I suppose it's not like she could destroy the door or anything, but even if she's willing to dissuade them by force, she still gives up and lets them go to their deaths rather than stay with them through what is a genuinely fairly peaceful place.

Basically, I feel like Asgore's treatment by the end of the game specifically is one of the few places where I don't like the writing, because it doesn't feel like he deserves it. They were all handed a shitty, tragic situation, and Asgore's options were to either let his people die of sadness, or go out and murder seven people - and unquestionably start another war that would end with either the humans or the monsters all dead. Waiting and only killing the children opportunistically may have been cowardly, but I can't find it in me to hate him for refusing to go out and murder the first seven humans he saw.

I feel like Toriel was making some major leaps in logic about what a hell murder land the rest of the underground became after she left

My interpretation of that even was when Chara and Asriel died Asgore in a moment of grief, anger, and mourning made an thoughtless impulsive decision to declare that all humans that fall in the Underground must be killed. Less about breaking the barrier and more about him not being in the best mental state when he made that declaration. Toriel left because she of course does not approve of more bloodshed but I do think she could of stopped it better if she stayed (being a person in power herself).

I think Toriel and Asgore are both equally at fault for what happened in their own ways.

On how dangerous the monster world is - it seems like most of the monsters do support the whole "kill humans" thing, it's just that most don't know what a human even looks like so they don't even notice that you are one.

Asgore is absolutely a sympathetic and fleshed out character. But you know, child murder is child murder, and he should be given some shit for that.

The shit that he gets given in universe is. His ex doesn't like him but lets him hang around anyway.

Still beloved by everyone else.

I guess he's also dethroned but I don't know that he minds that.

In hindsight yeah, Asgore is kind of let off not just easy, but basically completely vindicated.

It's one of of the two problems in Undertale's otherwise compelling narrative.

Asgore flaw is that he is indecisive and in a way, he lack a spine, I feel this run bad for some people but there is such a thing as being to weak and Asgore clearly was that,incapable of choice one thing, he just let more suffering that it was require.

In short toriel was "do or not do, there is no try" on him.

Asgore is a people pleaser, for better or worse.

The thing with Toriel, is her "leaving them to die" was more or less her not kidnapping them and forcing them to stay with her.

Yeah, toriel decide she didnt want nothing to do with asgore but at the same time she cant force the kids, in part because they are not "hers".

And we see asgore lack of strong decision making in deltarune, he is in red number, aparently because he kept giving the flower for free.

Okay, finally got around to playing Undertale. Got three things to say, really.

First, I don't really understand why this was so hyped a few years ago. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulting it at all, but was it praised along the lines of 'a really good game for something that costs 10$ and was developed independently'? Because while it sets a great tone and the characters are quite lovable, the gameplay itself is kind of annoying and the story is quite short and, for the most part, not really that complex or clever.

Second, despite how cheesy that final battle was, it still worked. Tone and lovable characters do get you a long way.

Third, Alphys really is a trashy lying coward like she says she is and I wish I didn't have to encourage her.

Oh, and I am a pathetic voyeuristic loser who just watched the genocide route on Youtube instead. Not because I can't bear to kill Toriel and Papyrus or whatever but because, like, I don't think I can beat Sans? I'm not terribly good at this game. And also it seems like a real chore to grind that much and for very little story.

As for Asgore, I find it kind of interesting from a meta POV that the epilogue just sort of ignores that he's a murderer apart from Toriel being mad at him, but then there are hints that they might get back together anyway so, like, I guess murder is okay? Unless it's humans killing monsters.

Sometimes, characters, tone, and story are all you need. The retro graphics and god-tier music also do wonders.

Edited by Weirdguy149 on Mar 11th 2020 at 12:33:17 PM

I'm in the camp that finds Undertale as just good. It was a nice experience, but it didnt have a profound effect on me the way it seemed to have on other people. Then I played Mother 3 again. So, I get it, but it didnt get me.

Actually, I'm more into what little we've seen of Deltarune. Oooh. And Oddity. Unrelated, but ooh that Oddity.

Edited by Zeromaeus on Mar 11th 2020 at 1:21:00 PM

I'm wondering where you got the impression they'd get back together.

Realistically speaking, I don't think they will. What I mean is that the story dropped hints to that effect so someone could believe it if they wanted to. Does that make sense? Like Alphys saying she ships them and the player being asked if they think the two will get back together. Or them working in the same place in the epilogue. Like Toby was letting the readers think it could happen if they wanted to without saying it outright.

Huh, not the impression I got. The epilogue scene only suggested... proximity, I guess? And Alphys's tastes are goddamn trash. Not that this stopped shippers but they are trash too, like Alphys. I think Toby was poking fun of it. Again, my impression.

I don't think it'll go anywhere either, but I feel like it was left open enough to let the player come to that conclusion if they really wanted to ship it.

And of course Alphys has trash taste since she is trash. That's the real reason why she goes to the garbage dump: It's her natural habitat.

...Hating Alphys is fun.

Edited by Arha on Mar 12th 2020 at 3:54:13 AM

I like her for being trash, actually, and for reacting horribly went put into an unenviable positions.

Like it wasn't like she kidnapped monsters to perform horrible experiments on them, she had the closest thing monsters have to cadavers and the experiments went horribly right and she henceforthed panicked and made absolutely no right decisions from there.

Given "reviving the dead" was never the aim of the experiment, I don't think Gone Horribly Right applies here.

Edited by RhymeBeat on Mar 12th 2020 at 9:00:36 AM

Alphys as a character would have been significantly weakened were she just a nerd with anxiety who needed to learn to like herself instead of someone who fucked up so colossally as she did.