The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Yeah I have no issue with the idea that a dude called Yeshua got executed by the Romans in Jerusalem around 33 CE.

Might have been a few guys who fit that description.

Christ, let's not peddle Jesus Mythicism here. Most scholars who specialise in the origins of Christianity, including those who are atheist or agnostic (Bart Ehrman, probably the most widely well regarded New Testament scholar, Maurice Casey, etc.), generally agree that it is most likely that a historical preacher, on whom the Christian figure "Jesus Christ" is based on did, in fact, exist. And, while I'd love to write down all the reasons and evidence for that, and why the opposite is seen as fridge theory, I think Tim O'Neill (an atheist himself), who runs the blog History for Atheist made a whole series of blogs about it that words it much better than I ever could.

Agreeing on that a person "on which Jesus Christ is based on" existed is not the same as agreeing on that Jesus Christ existed. In fact, it is more or less saying that Jesus Christ is a legendary figure.

Plus "most likely existed" is not the same as "existed".

There's also the issue that prophets were a dime a dozen back then, and Rome was crucifying plenty of those too (mostly for general rabble-rousing, I imagine, which pretty much was the charge for Jesus as well).

"Did Jesus really exist?"

"Well, yes, but actually no."

The is no direct evidence that someone named "Jesus" existed and became the basis of the individual we now know as "Christ", but the fact is we have almost no direct evidence that anyone existed before printed records. Almost everything we have about anybody is second hand, often decades after the person died. So if you believe that Jesus was a myth based on lack of evidence, then to be consistent you also shouldn't accept the existence of Alexander the Great, or Socrates.

Anyway, the idea of the Trinity has [[a well documented https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html]] history. Although it is true that Jesus was recorded as comparing himself to a son and God to a father, and that God, "The Son", and "The Holy Spirit" are all mentioned, there is no mention of these entities being one or all co-existent with God anywhere in the Bible. It wasn't until much later that the idea of a triune God began to appear in historical records. Jesus himself wasn't commonly referred to in the writing of theologians as being divine in nature until the 2nd century, that is to day, no one referred to him as a "God" before then. Even then, he was still commonly referred to as a subordinate individual below God the creator (ie, "the One True God"). To be clear, Jesus was worshipped from the very beginning of early Christianity, just not as "God."

It was Tertullian (160-225 CE) who first asserted that God the Father gave rise to the Son, who gave rise to the Holy Spirit, in that order. This still isn't a "triune God" in the sense of the Trinity as we understand it today, but was a transitional idea that led to later developments.

Next, it was the council of Bishops called by the Emperor Constantine that declared that the Father and Son were of the same substance or essence, as a way of resolving the Arian Controversy. Finally, the Council of Constantinople (381 CE) clearly clarified that God the Father and Jesus the Son were in some sense one being. Controversies continued, as various factions fought to defend their diverse views on the topic. Augustine had some things to say on the subject, as did some others. But over time the Nicene Creed became established as the accepted doctrine.

Therefore, it is accurate to say the "Theologians came up with it". It was a compromise, developed by committee, that was designed as a resolution to an ongoing series of controversies and conflicts that were threatening to divide Christianity into competing factions (which eventually happened anyway).

What exactly is the Holy Spirit supposed to be?

It seems to be the aspect of God that actually directly communicates with His followers.

So stuff like the burning bush, the dove, etc.

A part of me does find funny that everyone is cool with unfathomable, eldritch and incomprehensible gods in fiction but whenever the unfathomable is in Christianity people lose their goddamn minds.

As for the holy spirit, my perception has been that it is the more ethereal aspect of God. The Father is the creator, The Son is the "son of man", the Holy Spirit is the lovecraftian mass of pulsating energy from beyond this realm that silently gazes upon reality.

Though ironically the Holy Spirit seems to be the aspect that is most direct with His followers. When God wants to outright tell them to do something, that is the Holy Spirit.

So, the Holy Spirit is essentially an ability God has that allows Him to possess living beings and communicate through them? Does it only work on plants and animals, or does He use it to speak through other things?

He used it to make the Apostles omniglots iirc.

No. This is just one of the things he can do but it is not what he essentially is. if you want an analogy to understand what the Holy Spirit is supposed to be, the best I know is the one proposed by St. Augustine. He talks about the human mind's abilities to remember, to understand, and to desire. These are different and yet interlacing aspects of the same being. So you can roughly think of the Father as God's Identity, the Son as God's Intelligence and the Holy Spirit as God's Will

About how God communicates, generally speaking every single being that exists in the world is somehow a testimony of God's existence, will and love. Special, miracolous communications happen mostly through the Holy Spirit speaking directly to the believer's mind and heart. Interventions in the physical world, such as burning bushes, are rarer and are considered by some theologians to be metaphorical representations of inward mystical experiences.

Please note that I am speaking here only about what the christian doctrine says; I am not stating that any of this is actually true. Personally I am an atheist, by the way.

So am I (an Atheist) and I don't mind discuss the topic of God and Religion on a objective-basis with true believers of it.

That said, in regards to the Holy Spirit and how it works.

Holy Spirit = Hive Mind with all of creation.

Edited by TitanJump on Oct 23rd 2021 at 9:26:37 PM

I am highly amused that this central idea of Christianity was designed by committee. Some things really never change.

@DeMarquis I'm not sure how you justify your claim that Jesus wansn't referred to as divine in nature until the second century. Paul says in Philippians 2:6 (a book that is generally accepted to have been written by him) that Jesus is "in very nature God" and has "equality with God". Moreover, he appears to be quoting an early Christian hymn rather than introducing some new idea.

Edited by pi4t on Oct 23rd 2021 at 2:34:00 AM

"Equality with God" can mean several things, though, and is not quite the same as saying Jesus is identical with God.

Hold up, if the Holy Spirit is supposed to be like a Hive Mind connecting all living beings to God and it's the network that God communicates directly to people though, how does THIS make sense?!

What, did the Holy Spirit just not exist before Jesus? Weren't there moments set earlier than Jesus of God speaking to people?

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 23rd 2021 at 5:30:55 AM

I think the idea is that Jesus existed before he incarnated or whatever?

... than what's even the point of establishing an order?

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 23rd 2021 at 6:03:19 AM

I mean it does kind of clash with the idea that God is "outside time and space" which would kind of imply he experiences everything all at once.

So for him there is no before or after. He doesn't predict the future, he just watches stuff happen and then tells people about it at an earlier point in time.

Although I suppose that idea also clashes with the idea that original sin was ever a thing, because for an a-temporal God Jesus's crucifixion happened at the same time as the fall, so Man's Sin was already atoned for before it even occurred, and there was no reason to expel us from the garden, except I suppose to assure the atonement eventually happened.

Edited by Elfive on Oct 23rd 2021 at 2:26:38 PM

The way I think C.S. Lewis put it, is that in Christianity one of the core ideas is that God is love. But one can't truly be love when one is a singular entity. So in the beginning God existed as Father and Son, and they loved each other. The Holy Spirit is the embodiment of the love of God. I can't recall the specifics right now, but one can find readings of his various essays on Youtube that delve into this topic that are quite fascinating.

The idea behind many attempts to explain the Trinity is indeed that the different aspects of our personality (intelligence, love etc.), which in the human mind are variable and fickle (we don't love all the time, or always the same things etc.), in a perfect and eternal being like God are themselves stable, eternal, perfect. God's Wisdom or God's Love are as eternal as God himself; they are not just something that happens to him but they are him, in a way.

I find this way of treating the question very interesting because, whatever one may think about the truth of these theological claims, the theologians involved were led to an in-depth analysis of the human mind. The observations St. Augustine made about human beings, in order to explain the Trinity, are poignant and insightful in themselves too.

Edited by YourBloodyValentine on Oct 23rd 2021 at 8:01:44 AM

I was going to make a half-joke that The Holy Spirit is, basically, The Light Side of The Force. Actually, while I'm sure that's an oversimplification I've usually interpreted it as "some kind of benign ethereal entity". Not a theologian though, so I could be way off.

Mind you, I rarely see the Holy Spirit portrayed as a "being" in the same way God and Jesus are. This is probably what influenced me to view it as more of a "Cosmic Will".

The funny thing about Jesus dying for our sins is that that is a very Jewish tradition, namely that of the scapegoat, in which a community offloads all their sins onto a goat, and then ritually kill it to get rid of the sin.

In effect, Jesus offers to be the scapegoat for all humanity.